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Expanding ammo

9K views 102 replies 15 participants last post by  fredj338 
#1 ·
Soooo, just a question (well, maybe two ?'s), and I am not trying to be provocative, but can't one take down a perp with multiple shots from FMJ, or HP ammo just as easily as they can with all this newly-configured, and might I add, expensive self-defense ammo?!? I know I am going to get nailed for this but I am ready (I think).

Is the higher price for 20 shots valid?

I feel like 30 shots and adequate training with traditional ammo (FMJ or HP) can accomplish self-preservation goals quite nicely.
 
#2 ·
Yes, buy good self defense ammo for carry. Don't use fmj for self defense. Have a look at some ballistic testing on youtube, I recommend tnoutdoors9.
 
#3 ·
Rifle or pistol?
Pistol range means the fastest expansion and dumping as much energy into the assailant.
Rifle range I'm satisfied with FMJ.
 
#7 · (Edited)
That is it exactly. Pistol caliber FMJs will cruise right through a human sized target exiting at a lower speed but plenty fast enough to enter a second body or several walls. What you want is for the bullet to STOP INSIDE the intended target and to penetrate deeply enough to reach organs and tissues that will incapacitate and stop the threat. Don't get worked up about this dumping of energy BS. That's just physics. the faster it sheds energy, the shallower the penetration becomes.



This is also true and was less in my experience.
 
#5 ·
Soooo, just a question (well, maybe two ?'s), and I am not trying to be provocative, but can't one take down a perp with multiple shots from FMJ, or HP ammo just as easily as they can with all this newly-configured, and might I add, expensive self-defense ammo?!? I know I am going to get nailed for this but I am ready (I think).

Is the higher price for 20 shots valid?

I feel like 30 shots and adequate training with traditional ammo (FMJ or HP) can accomplish self-preservation goals quite nicely.
I may be off on this but I think rapidly expanding hollowing point is the bullet of choice because it inflicts the most damage (huge wound cavity) while dumping most of the energy inside the bad guy. Very little chance of to much penetration, and if it does happen, the bullet will have lost a ton of velocity bouncing around inside the bad guy... Whereas with fmj there isn't much to slow down the bullet so you will run the risk of hitting unintended targets behind the bad guy.
 
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#8 ·
Sure, shot placement is king BUT, you are handicapping yourself with FMJ. Think ice pick wounds, small, smooth, nearly self sealing (depending on how fat the BG). An expanding bullet creates a larger terminal wound, crushing tissue as it passes, no smooth edges to seal up. So yes, FMJ will work, but do you really want to put 4-5 COM hits to get the same result as 1-2 good JHP? A 50rd box of premium JHP is about $35. It will last you an entire lifetime of CCW or HD. I don't see the point of carrying the worst ammo you can carry unless you are stuck with it.
 
#14 ·
Let's summarize this way. The FBI used silvertip 9mm and they switched to 40. Sxt came out and got a few thousand examples of shooting people and viola FBI switched back to 9mm.

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Let's summarize this way. The FBI used silvertip 9mm and they switched to 40. Sxt came out and got a few thousand examples of shooting people and viola FBI switched back to 9mm.

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.
They didn't switch back because the 9mm Has proven better. The switch is primarily because part time shooters, as most Leo are, shoot 9mm better.
 
#24 ·
Critical Dooty.

Seriously, that's a crap round, even if it went through a 5.25 XDm. ShootingtheBull410 on youtube does basically side by side tests for the "perfect" 9mm round - expansion, penetration, retained weight...

HSTs or Gold Dots in 9mm for me. Why carry anything less?
not so crap when it actually performed as advertised and desired in an actual SD situation.

Is there better? You bet. I can't argue that one bit. but it did it's job and for that i am very thankful in a lot of ways.
 
#19 ·
Soooo, just a question (well, maybe two ?'s), and I am not trying to be provocative, but can't one take down a perp with multiple shots from FMJ, or HP ammo just as easily as they can with all this newly-configured, and might I add, expensive self-defense ammo?!? I know I am going to get nailed for this but I am ready (I think).

Is the higher price for 20 shots valid?

I feel like 30 shots and adequate training with traditional ammo (FMJ or HP) can accomplish self-preservation goals quite nicely.
Ok...

First off, let's clear up a couple of faulty assumptions that are central to your position--that is, that you will have time to get off three (or more rounds) and, if you get them off, you will be able to hit with all of those multiple rounds. These are rather dangerous assumptions to make; I lump them into the same category as the one that folks who carry unchambered make when they say "I'll have time and ability to chamber a round"...and that just ain't necessarily so.

Second--what are you referring to when you say "new configured self defense ammo"? If you are talking about the Halo crap (or whatever the call it now), or other frangible rounds (RCBS, Glaser, Magsafe, etc), then--you are on the right track; they are gimmicks and should be avoided...I assume this is what you mean, since you lump JHP's in with ball. However, to equate ball and JHP's...well, that's a bad equation. JHP's do tend, given similar placement, to have a better track record at getting a rapid stop than ball...and they also have a much better track record of not exiting your target and being dangerous downrange (not that this means you have carte blanche to ignore the third law...but, also acknowledge sometimes things get...fluid...and you may not be paying as close attention to what's downrange as you should).

Third--is 30 shots a bit of a typo? Because if you think you are going to be able to fire 30 rounds...well. See point #1.

So--finally, not all JHP's are created equal..The latest generation of them--the HST's, the Gold Dots, the Ranger-T, the Barnes-X (in many loadings), et al--these rounds have been designed to perform remarkably well under a number of different conditions; these are leaps and bounds better than the JHP's were back around 1990, when your JHP/ball equation may have been a bit more valid.

At the end of the day, you can carry what you like; but I've yet to have a single instructor opine that it is better to carry ball than JHP in your service caliber handgun (if we are talking .380 or lesser, then we can re-examine the issue); and I also think that it is a bit short-sighted and highly disregarding some facts when it comes to terminal performance of defensive rounds.

Let's summarize this way. The FBI used silvertip 9mm and they switched to 40. Sxt came out and got a few thousand examples of shooting people and viola FBI switched back to 9mm.

Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.
Well...

Actually, they had no fixed 9mm carry round back in the 1980's; agents used what they liked, or what the FBI got that year. And they didn't switch directly to .40; they briefly switched to the 10mm 180gr HydraShok downloaded to their specs (which, as it turned out, could be duplicated by the .40 S&W) in S&W 1076's. SXT--Same eXact Talon--came out, had the same mediocre performance that Black Talon had (which makes sense, as it was the Same eXact bulleT), got improved to Ranger-T, and started to get a track record.
 
#23 ·
Actually, they had no fixed 9mm carry round back in the 1980's; agents used what they liked, or what the FBI got that year. And they didn't switch directly to .40; they briefly switched to the 10mm 180gr HydraShok downloaded to their specs (which, as it turned out, could be duplicated by the .40 S&W) in S&W 1076's. SXT--Same eXact Talon--came out, had the same mediocre performance that Black Talon had (which makes sense, as it was the Same eXact bulleT), got improved to Ranger-T, and started to get a track record.
my bad your right ranger t is what they are using. Silvertips in the Miami shoot out were the catalyst for the switch.

Service life 1200 round 10mm was a logistical nightmare that many FBI agents couldn't manage so ended up eventually at 40


Safety is a momentary choice. Prior performance and certification are completely irrelevant.
 
#20 ·
i dont think fancy rounds are any harder to hit your target with.
do they feed reliably in your pistol?
and how often are you really going to buy them?
i go through a box a year.
i keep them in the mag for my carry, then use range ammo at the range.
i shoot the mag empty every 6 months to rotate my stock.
 
#32 ·
You tried anything else? Like saying "best sex ever" with only one woman?????;)
 
#40 ·
Does the POI change at say, 7 yards when switching from 115 grain to 147 grain? I have never shot 147 grain 9mm but after watching some review on HST that is the weight I want to carry. I currently carry 124 grain Remington Defense stuff and I didn't notice a whole lot of POI change out to 7 yards.
 
#48 ·
Cabela's ammo is a rip off. Buy online... Honestly I bet you paid the same for your bargain JHP's locally that I paid for HST's online.

And quit using terms than antiquate these bullet designs. Every JHP we've discussed here has been developed in the last 25 years as Cuda pointed out. "Good ole HP's" and "Old-Fashioned JHP's" does nothing but show a lack of knowledge. You've done nothing to associate these terms with any maker or specific model of hollow point, given no examples of what you're actually carrying, and shown no definitive evidence that what you carry is considered a good load by professionals in this line of work.
 
#53 ·
Cabela's ammo is a rip off. Buy online... Honestly I bet you paid the same for your bargain JHP's locally that I paid for HST's online.

And quit using terms than antiquate these bullet designs. Every JHP we've discussed here has been developed in the last 25 years as Cuda pointed out. "Good ole HP's" and "Old-Fashioned JHP's" does nothing but show a lack of knowledge. You've done nothing to associate these terms with any maker or specific model of hollow point, given no examples of what you're actually carrying, and shown no definitive evidence that what you carry is considered a good load by professionals in this line of work.

DUDES, this was a question, asking for some opinions, WTF??!?!?!
 
#51 ·
you can always do what the russians did and use fmj that have an air pocket under the jacket in the nose.
this way you get a easy feed of a fmj, the sideways post impact trajectory of nothing else, and geneva convention compliance.
 
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