Does the 223 tumble and fragment like the 5.56 round?

Discussion in 'The Ammo Can' started by Magog, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. Magog

    Magog XDTalk 100 Member

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    People say they are the same...


    But I can find no data on the 223 tumbling and fragmenting.


    They do move at the same rate of speed...

    The Hyperstactic shock alone has been proven to kill animals when the bullet hits the soft watery body and forces all that blood into the skull. If the animal does not die it suffers massive brain damage and is impaired.


    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZjKI7jt2gQ]223 stopping power demonstration - YouTube[/ame]


    this is the best vid I have seen on 223 damage. It left a huge exit wound and I am happy with my choice in 223.

     
  2. Rob2

    Rob2 XDTalk 1K Member

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    They ae the same. The difference is in tolerances for chambering really from what i gather, .223 has a lower tolerance on casing size and the 5.56 chambering not as tight a tolerance because its generaly in combat type guns vs being in precision guns like .223

    I personaly agree with people also in saying the 5.56 is a hotter round as i can tell when i shoot 5.56 out of my ar it kicks a tiny bit more than when i shoot rounds labeled .223

    So to be safe, stick with .223 with a gun marked .223 but if its marked 5.56 it doesnt matter


    Edit: also keep in mind, in general 5.56 is usually a fmj and .223 especialy varmit and hunting loads are some form of hollow point or balistic tip(which is kinda the same as a hp). And that can be the tumbling u hear about in 5.56 vs a hp in .223 its not really cause the round is so different as much as one is usually a hp and other usually a fmj
     
  3. Bluto

    Bluto XDTalk 2K Member

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  4. Cuda66

    Cuda66 XDTalk 10K Member

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    Actually, it's hydrostatic shock, and it hasn't been proven to do anything.
     
  5. cz75luver

    cz75luver XDTalk 3K Member

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    Actually, scientific/medical evidence/history has proven it to be quite damaging. It has been proven to fracture bones, destroy organs, cause brain hemorraging, etc. Just depends on the projectile characteristics (size, speed, energy, motion through medium, etc.) and where it hits/travels. Organs that are more liquid filled will experience greater damage than more dense organs if the projectile characteristics are enough to cause the damage. What seems to a common rule of thumb is that a projectile must at least have 500 ft-lb of force.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2012
  6. Cuda66

    Cuda66 XDTalk 10K Member

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    You're confusing temporary cavity and hydrostatic shock.

    And it has nothing to do with energy; it's more a function of velocity.
     
  7. cz75luver

    cz75luver XDTalk 3K Member

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  8. cz75luver

    cz75luver XDTalk 3K Member

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    The PhDs I linked above would disagree. BTW, velocity with no mass has no direct physical effect. You're body is constantly struck by particles with negligible mass travelling at a high velocity (i.e. - radiation) but you don't feel them. Energy and/or force is what a person would typically feel. When it comes to penetrating trauma in the form of a bullet, kinetic energy (Ke = (1/2)mv^2) needs to be considered.

    You're confusing temporary cavity with hydrostatic shock as I never related the two. They are different. The amount of temporary cavity that remains as a permanent cavity is related to the elasticity of the tissue. A classic example is the swinging of a bat. Swing a bat at a garbage can results in a dent or cavity. Do the same to foam and the foam will bounce back. Do it to the abdomen of a person and the body will spring back, but depending on the force of the impact, location, etc., there can be internal damage to include bone fractures, hemorraging, etc. Bullets, though, are a form of penetrating trauma rather than blunt trauma. I'd refer to the effects of bullets to the PhD's.
     
  9. Cuda66

    Cuda66 XDTalk 10K Member

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    Courtney's been debunked. for cryin' out loud, he still thinks the fabricated "Strasbourg Tests" are valid...

    And Wikipedia isn't a very reliable source.

    Temp cavity is the result of tissue being stretched by a high-velocity bullet's passage--the same pressure waves you'll see in air. It can damage organs, break bones, etc...if the bullet is moving fast enough. Take a real heavy, slow-moving bullet...there is minimal temp cavity, regardless of it's energy.

    Hydrostatic shock is the mythical buildup of magical pressure waves in the blood that "shock" the brain into shutting down...
     
  10. cz75luver

    cz75luver XDTalk 3K Member

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    For the OP, this might be what you're looking for:

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m2vaJCBQTs]223REM Federal 55gr Triple-Shock in 20% gelatin - YouTube[/ame]
     
  11. Medic738

    Medic738 XDTalk 1K Member

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    You can see the difference in the two when it as shot at ballistic gelatin the the temporary cavity is shown while the bullet passes through the block. The hydrostatic shock is when the block ripples and lifts it up off of the table. The permanent cavity is shown after the bullet stops.
     
  12. cz75luver

    cz75luver XDTalk 3K Member

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    You do realize that hydro stands for water and that roughly 60% of the human body is comprised of water. If it were based on blood, it would be hemo.

    You really need to grasp a better understanding of the part energy plays in all of this. Anyone that has studied the kinematics of trauma knows the part it plays. One of the first things you learn when taking a trauma management course are some of the laws of physics, energy in particular. Quoting from the military edition of PHTLS (Prehospital Trauma Life Support):

    Lastly, we're not talking about the temporary cavity. Bringing it up only complicates the topic. Temporary cavity isn't the same as permanent cavity which isn't the same as "hydrostatic shock".
     
  13. cz75luver

    cz75luver XDTalk 3K Member

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    Exactly!!! Thank you.

    The block is limited in size so it lifts and ripples, but if it were a human body, the shock wave would be travelling through other organs. It would be similar to how an earthquake at the bottom of the ocean can cause a tidal wave on the shore. Just depends on what the wave comes up against/interacts with.
     
  14. cz75luver

    cz75luver XDTalk 3K Member

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    One last thing, one can always trace down the references listed in the Wikipedia entry.
     
  15. cz75luver

    cz75luver XDTalk 3K Member

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    For an example of 5.56 yawing, see:

    5.56x45mm NATO - US M-855 62gr (steel core)

    It's kind of hard to see, but the bullet enters from the mid-upper left and ends at the lower right.



     

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