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922(r) parts count on Legion USA Saiga AK-47

4K views 14 replies 8 participants last post by  azfist 
#1 ·
I just purchased a new Saiga rifle from Legion USA (they are now sold out, but you can see it here: AK47 7.62x39 Saiga IZSL-MP folding buttstock )

I probably should have inquired more about the 922(r) parts counts prior to purchase, but I should be able to work with what I've got. After I received the rifle, I sent Legion an e-mail asking for a listing of the compliance parts (note, it was sold to me with a US-made Tapco mag). I got the following response:

This rifle it is only compliant with US made mags. We only used a US made fire control group (3 parts), US made pistol grip (1),and the mag (3 parts). If you want to use foreign mags, you would need to use a US made floor plate and follower in the magazine.
Okay, so I need at least one more US-made part, as I understand it; not a problem, as I was planning to buy and install an Midwest Industries handguard anyway. So, I sent this e-mail reply, just to double-check my parts compliance:

I am planning to buy and attach a US-made hand guard made by Midwest Industries. By my count, that would allow use of foreign-made magazines. Am I correct in this understanding?

After the US-made hand guard, my parts count should be:

Foreign:
(1) Receiver
(2) Barrel
(3) Front Trunion
(4) Bolt
(5) Bolt Carrier
(6) Gas Piston
(7) Butt Stock

US-made:
(1) Trigger
(2) Disconnector
(3) Hammer
(4) Pistol Grip
(5) Hand Guard

This leaves me with 3 unused foreign parts slots, which should allow the use of a completely foreign magazine, bringing my foreign parts count to the allowed 10, correct?
His reply left much to be desired, and so far as I understand the law, he doesn't seem to understand 922(r) correctly:

From my understanding, you need to have at least 6 US parts on a rifle.
To which I replied:
Common misconception. What actually matters is that you have no more than 10 foreign parts (from the 922(r) list) on the rifle. A typical AK-47 has 16 parts that 922(r) cares about (all the ones I listed above, plus a muzzle attachment). That means that yes, typically, an AK-47 needs 6 US-made parts. However, the firearm I purchased from you does not have a muzzle attachment, so it only has 15 parts. Ergo, I should only need 5 US parts to be in compliance, at least as far as I understand the law.

See here:
Parts Count on Saiga Shotguns and Rifles - Second Amendment, 922r & the law
and here:
Section 922r Worksheet
and here:
BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance Gunwiki TWiki
and here:
BuildAkVerifyCompliance Gunwiki TWiki
So, AK-lovers, is my understanding correct, and after replacing the Russian-made hand guard with a US-made one, I'll be good-to-go on using com-block steel mags?
 
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#2 ·
I just purchased a new Saiga rifle from Legion USA (they are now sold out, but you can see it here: AK47 7.62x39 Saiga IZSL-MP folding buttstock )

I probably should have inquired more about the 922(r) parts counts prior to purchase, but I should be able to work with what I've got. After I received the rifle, I sent Legion an e-mail asking for a listing of the compliance parts (note, it was sold to me with a US-made Tapco mag). I got the following response:

Okay, so I need at least one more US-made part, as I understand it; not a problem, as I was planning to buy and install an Midwest Industries handguard anyway. So, I sent this e-mail reply, just to double-check my parts compliance:



His reply left much to be desired, and so far as I understand the law, he doesn't seem to understand 922(r) correctly:

To which I replied:


So, AK-lovers, is my understanding correct, and after replacing the Russian-made hand guard with a US-made one, I'll be good-to-go on using com-block steel mags?
yes, you need 5. You can change the hammer, trigger, disconnector, pistol grip, lower handguard, butt stock, gas piston, mag body, mag floor plate, mag follower. Pick 5. Use them all and call it a day.....
 
#3 ·
Thanks. Good to know I'm not going crazy, and that my understanding of 922(r) appears to be correct.

That said, I might just send a letter to the ATF for clarification before I use any all-commie magazines in this rifle. I've got three others that have US-made followers (a couple Circle-10's with Arsenal followers/floor plates, and a 40-rounder with a US Palm rebuild kit installed); those should keep me happy with it while I wait...
 
#4 ·
Thanks. Good to know I'm not going crazy, and that my understanding of 922(r) appears to be correct.

That said, I might just send a letter to the ATF for clarification before I use any all-commie magazines in this rifle. I've got three others that have US-made followers (a couple Circle-10's with Arsenal followers/floor plates, and a 40-rounder with a US Palm rebuild kit installed); those should keep me happy with it while I wait...
Why do you need a clarification letter?? You need to change 5 parts to use surplus mags. You have a tapco trigger group, that is 3. So you change to a US pistol grip and lower HG (gas tube cover doesn't count) and you have your 5. Wanna play 'safe', change the butt stock, that gives you 6.
 
#5 ·
not trying to sound dickish--but why exactly are you so worried about "over-compliance" and/or a "Clarification"? :confused:

922r is really kind of a joke--I cannot find a single case that has been successfully prosecuted by the ATFE for 922r violations (if anybody has one please feel free to share!)

of course it is a Catch-22 because by adherence to 922r we are supporting American Companies, whom offer US Made parts because of demand created by a ridiculous mandate...stupid as it is, still has that tiny upside
 
#6 ·
ATF has put in writing that while it while it is a violation of import regulation 922r to change a firearm without the specific number of US made parts it is not a violation to own/possess one after the fact. Once it is converted it becomes legal to posses and no longer comes under some import regulation. I would say you are good to go as is.
 
#7 ·
Got a copy of that?? Once a weapon is modified, it will no longer meet the requirements of a sporting arm as it was imported. So when you change say, a Saiga to accept standard mags, you have just assembled a non sporting arm that no longer meets it's import status. You effectively built a weapon using foreign parts. That is in the FAQ on the ATF site. Same with permanent mods to C&R weapons, they lose the C&R status. The 922r is more for dealers and home builders. it is basically an 'add on' charge if they want to get pushy. And any LEO can make that assumption and confiscate your weapon for inspection. i have only heard of it happening twice, but that was an after the fact charge. Never heard the outcome either.
 
#9 ·
922r IS A JOKE.

no one has EVER been arrested for a 922r violation. It is really more for the importers and dealers but i'm not a lawyer so I won't get too much into that. The bottom line is that most people have no clue about 922r and this includes gun-stores that (and i've seen this countless times) put SGM 30rders in Saigia's on the display wall (which is "technically" a 922r violation)..

Einhart's first reply is correct though to stay 922r compliant; you need 5 US parts and a USA made 30rd magazine counts as a part too. Frankly though-- a lot of the tactical keyboard guys hype this crap up and turn it into a headache that is not rationally necessary.
 
#10 ·
an issue arises from your statements--which I would love to see links to have on hand for future references too sir!--about the LEOs being able to confiscate a weapon based upon suspicion--technically to comply with 922r the US Made parts have to be clearly marked as "Made in USA" to qualify...therefore its asinine to think any rational judge would sign a confiscation order when a simple field-strip on premesis can confirm compliance...

I will add that this is why I kept the packaging and documentation for all my Saiga conversion parts: Proof of 922r compliance and dates to verify Grandfathered Status should the requirements be changed....
i should have said that any LEO, with probable cause to seize your weapon, can apply for ATF tech to have it inspected to make sure it isn't an illegal weapon. And there is absolutely no verbiage about any part of a weapon (outside the receiver) being marked with a country of origin.

Note also that section 922(r) only bans "assembly", it is not
a crime to possess a weapon "assembled" in violation of this
section. However it may be subject to seizure and forfeiture, under
some circumstances, if ATF can show it was assembled in knowing or
willful violation of the Gun Control Act, under 18 U.S.C. section
924(d)(1), by clear and convincing evidence.

As for 922....this is as close as i have ever seen published
United States Court of Appeals,
Ninth Circuit.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Appellee,
v.
Ted Parker FIX, Appellant.
No. 99-30235.
1999.

STATEMENT OF FACTS

At the time of the offenses, appellant was the owner of a gun store in Lakewood, Washington. On January 8, 1998, appellant purchased two Norinco SKS assault rifles, serial numbers 8002356 and 8109223, from Nationwide Sports Distributors. See E.R. H62. Nationwide had purchased the guns on May 3, 1994 and May 5, 1994 respectively. See E.R. H66. Nationwide shipped the rifles to appellant with wooden stocks and permanent 10-round magazines. See E.R. H62-63. In early 1998, at appellant's direction, Jason Caputo, an employee in appellant's gun store, replaced the Norincos' stocks with folding ones. See E.R. H70-72, 123. Around the same time, Caputo added a folding stock to and removed a permanent magazine from a third Norinco SKS, serial number W2289. See E.R. H70-72. Appellant testified at trial that this third rifle was also manufactured before 1994. See E.R. H107.

*5 On April 8, 1998, Lieutenant Joseph Kirby of the City of Tacoma Police Department, working undercover in conjunction with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, bought the Norinco SKS with serial number 8002356 from appellant at appellant's gun store. See E.R. H27-28. The gun was equipped with a folding stock and bayonet mount. Appellant modified it in Kirby's presence to accept an extended-capacity detachable magazine. See E.R. H28-29, 81-82. On April 27, 1998, Heith Holden, another Tacoma police officer working undercover with the Bureau, purchased the Norinco with serial number 8109223 from appellant. See E.R. H53-55. The weapon also came with a folding stock and bayonet mount and accepted high-capacity detachable magazines. See E.R. H55, 81-82. Appellant had obtained the accessories added to the rifles from wholesalers. See E.R. at H111.

Following these purchases, Special Agent Benjamin Silva of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms executed a search warrant at appellant's store, where he found the Norinco SKS rifle with serial number W2289. See E.R. H81-82. Agent Silva also found a nine millimeter Calico Liberty III pistol in appellant's store, to which a foregrip and laser site had been added. See E.R. H82-83. *6 Appellant confirmed at trial that the Calico was his, see E.R. H119, and stated that he had bought the foregrip and laser site, see E.R. H112, and had installed the laser site himself, see E.R. H120.

At trial, Agent Silva testified that, with the foregrip attached, the Calico was a two-handed weapon. See E.R. H90. Officer Michael Cooney, also with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, testified that, with the addition of the foregrip, the Calico is a two-handed weapon and therefore not a pistol. See E.R. H98-02. Officer Cooney further explained that, because of the way it was mounted, use of the laser site in firing the gun would require two hands. See E.R. H103. The defendant testified that he had fired the Calico both one-and two-handed, see E.R. H119; confirmed that, in installing the laser site, he envisioned firing the gun two-handed, see E.R. H120; and suggested, apparently in reference to the foregrip, that “t could be a counter-balance” against the weight of the gun, see E.R. H122.

United States Court of Appeals,
Seventh Circuit.
TRADER VIC'S LTD, an Indiana Corporation[FN1] and Victor L. Reid, Sr. Plaintiffs-Appellants,
v.
Paul H. O'NEILL, Secretary of Department of Treasury. Defendant-Appellee.

(charge) 4. Attaching bayonets to SKS rifles. This violates 18 U.S.C. § 922(r).

About SKSs with bayonets...

Have no idea of the out come of either case. There are charges made for 922r as add ons, but there is very little info about cases brought to trial for them.
 
#15 ·
Same thing with cars. If your car doesn't have a cat you "bought it like that". They'll make you put one on, but at least you don't face federal fines by the EPA
 
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