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What is your primary carry caliber?

  • .22LR

    Votes: 1 0.8%
  • .22 MAG

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • .25 ACP

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • .380 ACP

    Votes: 8 6.2%
  • 9 MM

    Votes: 57 44.2%
  • .38 SPC

    Votes: 5 3.9%
  • .357 SIG/MAG

    Votes: 3 2.3%
  • .40 SW

    Votes: 29 22.5%
  • .44 MAG

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • .45 ACP/GAP

    Votes: 48 37.2%
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.22LR for Self Defense

12K views 84 replies 34 participants last post by  justgotback 
#1 ·
Hello everyone, Let me start by making it clear I am not attempting to start a "caliber war", and I am fully aware the difference's between killing power, and stopping power. Still it seems a good majority of gun enthusiasts/owner's who carry a weapon for SD underestimate the stopping/killing power of a .22LR when used in a SD situation. The whole my good old .45 ACP is better than everything on earth concept, and the tiny .22 can not stop the attacker(yet I find it funny because regardless of the choice of caliber used for SD, a determined attacker can/may still kill/hurt the victim even after being stop multiple times), where as throughout history the .22LR has been proven effective at putting criminals in the ground(not always immediatly), or stopping/ending the attack. Despite all of the "bigger is better" guys out their stating "Sure it may kill later, but may not stop the perp instantly" leading to the victim being killed by the perp due to .22lr's lack of effective stopping power, their is very few stories I can find to corroborate said statement. Finally, my question is how many of you guys/girls carry a weapon chambered in .22LR as a primary carry weapon for SD? The notion I assert when carrying is, can I accurately/quickly place my rounds where I need them to be(shot placement), and finally do I feel comfortable with the weapon?

My rational is both physical, and psychological:

Psychological: Bigger grants more of a "security blanket" for the operater, and the intimdation effect placed on the perp.

Physical: This can swing both ways, First being hit in the head(human target) with a baseball bat(1-4 lb's) swinged at 60 mph, vs a bolling ball(8-12 lbs) traveling the same speed(sure given the mass of the bolling ball is most likely going to cause more damage), but the effect will most likey result in death/incompacitation regardless.... hint on shot placement. The other is clear a bigger round can create both greater tissue/organ damage, and a larger hole causing more blood loss at a faster rate.

My primary carry weapon is a Glock 19 GEN4 LEO Edition, with a backup ruger sr22.

"One should show limited concern for a person carrying multiple "hand cannons", fear is for the man carrying only the .22 for his aim will almost alway be steady".
 
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#52 ·
Yes, but the point is that since the head is smaller (considerately) than the torso, and if your aim is an inch or so off, you could injure someone behind the perp, whereas with the torso an inch or two high/low/wide is still gonna hit the person. Plus as someone else mentioned, the head is very hard (no pun intended) and there is a greater chance of deflection when hitting a hard, solid surface vs the soft tissues in the abdomenal tissues, and though the chest is bony as well, the ribcage has enough gaps to allow a bullet through.

Headshots are for video games and (to quote Tool) "Hip Gangsta Wannabes."

This whole argument of .22lr vs the world is complete idiocy, and I am laughing my ass off. This thread seems basically to try and start an argument for the sake of having an argument. F'ing morons.

IMO, there are only a few ways to kill a person with a .22lr. Shoot them in the eyes, throat, temples, back of the head.

There are only two ways thats gonna happen--Sheer luck or the person lets you do it.

end rant. Y'all have a nice day.

Tool reference, yeah. I like that.

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied....learn to swim.
 
#53 ·
Grenades... flame thrower....
 
#54 ·
OOB when you are taking fire as well as sending it your IPSC skills are really not the panacea many game shooters think they are. And rest assurred IPSC is a game first and self defense training dead last.
 
#55 ·
Personally I think it's silly to think that a .22 will be a good SD caliber. Consider this.

In every possible scenario that could happen, including non stationary moving targets shooting back, you are 100% sure that you will land a perfect and unobstructed head shot? Not all bad guys will stand and give a perfect target like those USPSA targets.Not just a head shot but a head shot to the brain or spinal column? Why handicap your self that way?
+1

I agree completely with all of your statements, but alot of comments listed earlier indicate the .22LR is more a backup/weapon of last resort(it has merit). While I would never recommend using a .22 as a primary carry weapon. My sentiment's towards the .22lr's is met with respect, as it can(many stories/docuementation support it's effectiveness) with being used as a primary defensive weapon/deternet. Finally someone who appears to have sound logic, I never make a statement without prudence/evidence to back it up. As a SD weapon the .22LR can be deployed as a effective means of defending your life, and even killing the perp. So many people tend believe that carrying a larger caliber weapon is some how expotentially more effective at stopping a BG, than other smaller calibers(yet they can not site actual physical evidence, or other evidence tends to be contrary to the real world). Thanks for the great comment.
 
#56 ·
Here's one thing to ponder. In as SD situation you want to stop the bad guy as fast as possible, a CNS hit or bleed out are the only reliable ways to do this. A .22 is not the best choice in a dynamic situation. While a .22 might be a good weapon for assassin who sneak up on someone and shoot them in the head it's not the best choice as BUG. I personally wouldn't carry anything smaller than a .380 as BUG.
 
#57 ·
Lethal?
And ignorance?

While each encounter is different if a 200lb bad guy is coming at you, dressed in say a leather jacket, with a big knife - death isn't the issue at all - STOPPING him is the issue.

Ever read this? An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power Lots of info there. About 50% of all perps stop after being shot once - by any gun. 25% die - again, from any gun. Caliber doesn't really matter.

But to die you need to bleed out or stop the central nervous system and the first can take time. Until then the perp keeps coming.

So IMO what you want isn't so much a 'lethal' cartridge as one that stops the most perps the most often. And that's not a 22.



30% of the bad guys did not stop when shot with a 22 - at all, no matter how many times they got shot. Sorry, but I want better than that.

But then, it's all about playing the odds - odds are you'll never need to pull a gun much less discharge it.
 
#58 ·
Lethal?
And ignorance?

While each encounter is different if a 200lb bad guy is coming at you, dressed in say a leather jacket, with a big knife - death isn't the issue at all - STOPPING him is the issue.

Ever read this? An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power Lots of info there. About 50% of all perps stop after being shot once - by any gun. 25% die - again, from any gun. Caliber doesn't really matter.

But to die you need to bleed out or stop the central nervous system and the first can take time. Until then the perp keeps coming.

So IMO what you want isn't so much a 'lethal' cartridge as one that stops the most perps the most often. And that's not a 22.



30% of the bad guys did not stop when shot with a 22 - at all, no matter how many times they got shot. Sorry, but I want better than that.

But then, it's all about playing the odds - odds are you'll never need to pull a gun much less discharge it.
+1, I have reviewed this page on multiple occasions, and it is extremely useful as a reference.
 
#59 ·
I carry a .40 most of the time, but .357 magnum is a close second. The only reason I don't carry .357 more often is because sometimes I have to conceal, and I don't have an IWB holster for an N-frame smith or a 6" GP100. I do have a nice speed scabbard and a thumb break holster, and they work very well when I'm open carrying.


Why not .22? Well, I don't pay much attention to ".22lr has killed more people than any other caliber" because (1) it is an oft-repeated, never verified, made-up data point, and (2) because I don't carry a gun to make people eventually dead; I carry to make them stop threatening my life immediately. Cancer kills more people than guns and cars combined, but I'm not going to rely on the bad guy getting cancer to defend myself. I'm going to use whatever tool I can use to make him stop doing bad things to me and/or my family.


I value the .22lr caliber for killing small animals and for practice. I am able to practice a good deal more by using .22lr than I would be able to do if I only shot .357 and .40S&W. If I can hit a target with my .22, then I can hit it with any other caliber. practice with .22 has greatly improved my shooting ability.


Having said that, I do think that .22lr is useful for self defense for those who are likely to be attacked by a less-determined threat. For instance, if someone were to try to attack a 25-year-old Arnold Schwartzenegger (Sorry I don't know who are the current body-builder types), he'd have to be pretty determined and would not likely be discouraged by a .22lr, since he was probably already expecting resistance. Arnold would need to carry something pretty large, maybe a .44 magnum or .500 S&W to stop someone with the idea of attacking him. On the other hand, someone who looks like an easy target would be threatened by an assailant who is looking for a quick target with no resistance. Even small resistance offered by a perceived "easy target" is worth more than moderate resistance offered by a "hard target."
 
#62 ·
I find it quite disturbing/unrealistic, how completey ignorant/foolish you along with other so called "internet experts" tend to be. People often times tend to dismiss the killing potentional of any round, as a means to justify their gun purchase. Well, since I spend $1,000 on a 1911 chambered for .45 ACP it must be the best firearm with the most powerful round on earth. What is scary is how you along with other's underestimate the lethality of any pistol/rifile cartridge(even the .22LR) smaller than the one you carry, while the .45 can cause greater wounding effect, when compared to other pistols cartridge, believing a .22lr is a "weak", "underpowered", or "lacks the ability to stop a human". Almost all pistols rounds are deemed ineffective(with regards to one shot stops), against humans. In the unfortunate event involving a situation with another person pointing a pistol at me wether it be a .22lr, or a .45 sure It may take 1-2 shots with a .45 to put me down, or even 6-10 shots with a .22. Regardless dead is dead. I would say the .45 is a tad more humane(sad to say that). Overconfidence, and underestimation can/may lead to you own death.
The bold and underline's pretty much sum up the .22LR

Overconfidence, and underestimation can/may lead to you own death.
Yup , and you seem to underestimate a lot of things ... (like , every other handgun round)
 
#63 ·
I see you now agreeing with everyone , I'm dissapointed. Please don't give in to "Internet junk" -- I heard the Army is going to issue M&P .22's in replacement of the 15-22's because it's shown via expert study .. that the M&P .22 is lighter , and has overall better stopping power then the 15's.

Rumor has it that sidearms for 2013 will be Glock 21 (air soft) , so the Army can try and avoid friendly fire due to the overpentration of the .22LR.

I'll stick with my .17HMR.
 
#64 ·
the main problems i have with 22lr is they are not centerfire and are more prone to more duds. Second while they can kill people, they seem to do it slower, a guy you engage may very well die, after he stabs you, he falls over and you both die.

Also there are packaging constraints a 22 lr handgun is usually the same gun as its 25, 32, 380 counter parts. Same gun different barrel and mag. You might as well get the 380 if this is true, as modern hollow point 380s are pretty decent.

An inherited free 22 lr anything is always better than nothing, sometimes just one bang noise is all it takes to make three grown men take off for the hills. Often it is a bee sting to a mad bear, so long as they can get medical attention.
 
#67 ·
Those numbers are junk statistics. There are too many variables that are not taken into account. M&S and Ayoobe have been pushing this junk science for years.

Firearms Tactical has good scientific info on how and why the data is flawed.
There are several links to on this site.

Closing the Book on Marshall & Sanow's One-shot Stopping Power Fraud


Sanow, Ayoob Shooting Incident Falsehoods Reveal Credibility Problems with Gunwriter "Street Results" Research and Data
- by Shawn Dodson

Ayoob, Sanow Shooting Incident Falsehoods



http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs24.htm#Too%20Good%20To%20Be%20True

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm
 
#68 ·
I see you now agreeing with everyone , I'm dissapointed. Please don't give in to "Internet junk" -- I heard the Army is going to issue M&P .22's in replacement of the 15-22's because it's shown via expert study .. that the M&P .22 is lighter , and has overall better stopping power then the 15's.

Rumor has it that sidearms for 2013 will be Glock 21 (air soft) , so the Army can try and avoid friendly fire due to the overpentration of the .22LR.

I'll stick with my .17HMR.
LMAO!!!
 
#70 ·
Nobody is saying that a very carefully place head on, unobstructed shot with a .22 will eventually kill.
Just that is is not a good choice. as a BUG. There are much better choice. Static dummies are not a good example to be used to back up your argument.
 
#71 ·
Nobody is saying that a very carefully place head on, unobstructed shot with a .22 will eventually kill.
Just that is is not a good choice. as a BUG. There are much better choice. Static dummies are not a good example to be used to back up your argument.
especially if the guns are of close too equal cost, as most will be around $300 minimum for most 22 lr, hold ten rounds, and weight close to as much as say compact 9mm like a kahr cm9 which is only 14 ounces, you can have 6+1 9mm mag or extended 7+1 9mm for $400.

And its center fire.

I do not think there is one 22 lr handgun minus a nice SW snub nose revolver that is even as nice as a so-so 380 like a LCP.

Frankly they are great to practice with if you have a 22 kit for your glock sw, cz, sig. Thats a tool. Also ruger 22/45, mark III, or buckmark. I would like all three if someone else is buying. But i do not know how anyone makes the case for carrying a RIM FIRE 22 lr in this day and age. Makes no sense.

Sure examine the possibility, the pro and cons. I just do not see how anyone can make the pro list big enough to make it a carry gun or even back up gun.
 
#72 ·
Nobody is saying that a very carefully place head on, unobstructed shot with a .22 will eventually kill.
Just that is is not a good choice. as a BUG. There are much better choice. Static dummies are not a good example to be used to back up your argument.
Great and how is using a .45 on said moving target any better than a .22lr? Looks like we have another "little man's syndrome". This is my mighty .45 nothing can stop me.
 
#73 ·
If you don't know that they you really need to read up on terminal ballistics. You seem to have a problem with being proven wrong.
 
#74 ·
I do not trust rim fire for reliability reasons. My 10/22 custom i built i would not feel undergunned at all. Its a tac driver and can put many shots with a 30 roung mag. a 22 pistol yea i wouldnt want to use it unless i have to.
 
#75 ·
If you don't know that they you really need to read up on terminal ballistics. You seem to have a problem with being proven wrong.
You have proven who wrong? You only state opinion, no facts, nada just the good old "internet expert", funny because I enjoy challenging myth's, with evidence, and actually have witness 2 shootings in my life.

One was in Philadelphia PA 8 years ago(my family was not rich and lived in a really bad neighborhood), where a man stopped his car(wearing a bandanna over his face) got out walked up to another man sitting on a porch, where the assailant shot the victim with a high caliber .357 mag(I believe) in the lower face. The man did not drop instantly in fact even with half his jaw blown off he got up and attempted to run inside). The assailant looked me and my friend both in the eyes(I thought I as next), ran back into his car and sped off. Needless to say I believe the victim survived(pure luck).

The other incident happened only a couple of months ago(in Virginia Beach) while I was at a 7-11 near my house, their was this ****** club/bar located in the same commercial complex, and as I paid for my stuff, and left the business to my car. I looked over at two black individuals fighting, anyways I pulled out and heard two distinct pops(I never actually saw what happened), apparently one the individuals shot the other twice(once in the face, and once dead center mass in the chest with a .22 caliber revolver) apparently after the guy attacked him. Needless two say he was dropped right where he was shot, and was pronounced dead on the scene. I sped the hell out their but the news confined it. **** happens, I am so sick and tired of the bs coming from peoples mouths. I respect all caliber's, and treat them all as the potential to kill. PS, there is plenty of news reports confirming a One Shot Stop with all type of guns, in particular most homeowners tend to use .22 lol
 
#76 ·
If you don't know that they you really need to read up on terminal ballistics. You seem to have a problem with being proven wrong.
Funny because "terminal ballistics" are not always equal to real world use of any firearm. lol the .223 rem can output at 100 yards 1,330 ft·lbf of energy even with a through and through, that is far greater than almost all practical pistol rounds. Yet in IRAQ/AFGHANISTAN/VIETNAM, the biggest complaint was even after shooting the BG, he would get back up and keep firing. I did a 8 month tour making sand castles while serving in the US Navy, and I was informed to aim for the center mass of any visible portion of the BG often times it being their head. Even with rifle rounds shot placement is a major factor, training, and mental preparation is something a big caliber, or any as a matter of fact can not make up for even someone who carries a "big stick", but never practice's or is prepared to use deadly force. Why don't we all carry 357 Mag, .45 ACP, or 44 Mag's sense "terminal ballistics" indicates this are the most effective pistol cartridges. Because no single round has that magical ray of death. I can not deny that some rounds maybe more effective, but like any situation luck is the determining factor.
 
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