.223 Green tip questions.

Discussion in 'The Ammo Can' started by Ruaerikoholic, Mar 28, 2011.

  1. Ruaerikoholic

    Ruaerikoholic XDTalk 100 Member

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    Is the .223 Green tip "penetrator" really a vastly superior penetrating round when compared to the .223 FMJ?

    what is this stuff supposed to penetrate?
     
  2. agalindo

    agalindo XDTalk 15K Member Founding Member

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    Yes it is.
    Here's the thing against people not wearing armor it is nowhere as good as a good HP or SP when it comes to stopping someone. Unless your shooting at armor or other plating there's not need for it.
     
  3. HEREIAM

    HEREIAM XDTalk Member

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    The Green Tip Ammo was originally meant to be a round for the Squad Automatic Weapon. It was designed with the anticipation that we would be facing Warsaw Pact forces with body armor. The requirements for the round were that it had to penetrate so many mm's of kevlar at such and such a range. I don't remember the exact details. It has a tungsten tip to enhance penetration. The newer M16A2's and their on out could stabalize both rounds. Some of the M16A1's still in the inventory cannot stabalize the new round. The green tip is to make certain the new rounds aren't put in the older guns. Since the round was heavier than the old M193 (62grs. vs. 55grs.) their was a change in rifling to accomodate the heavier bullet.
    Well the Warsaw Pact threat disappeared for the most part. What we ended up fighting are mostly guerilla wars. Unarmored insurgents with AK's, RPG's, usually underfeed and often on drugs. The original M193 did it's damage by becoming unstable upon impacting soft tissue. It would yaw after a couple of inches, tumble, and often fragment causing devestating wounds. To accomplish this the velocity has to stay above 2700 f.p.s. in the lighter rounds. The green tip will also fragment but not as easily as the older round. Then put the rounds into a shorter barrel like the M4's and the fragmentation range drops off rapidly. The 20" barrels still due well to a couple hundred meters with the green tip. With no fragmentation you are basically hitting someone with a .22 Magnum.
    As mentioned earlier get someone on drugs, skinny, no body armor and the rounds zip right through them. Far from ideal. Good hits will still do the job. But the green tip doesn't penetrate armored vehicles all that well and doesn't fragment as well through the M4. So the round does nothing all that well. The new optics have helped quite a bit. A good cardiac, spine, or brain shot and they go down. But both the Army and Marines are fielding new rounds that are more appropriate to the combat situation we are in. Not the one we thought we'd be in.
    The good news is as civilians we are not hampered by treaties and such. We can purchase JHP's, JSP's, and all manner of bullets to make the 5.56 a very effective round within it's design parameters. About 300 meters on in. So if you must use fmj the M193 would probably be the better round. But you can get better rounds if heavy penetration is needed than the green tip. And you can get rounds that fragment better than the M193.
     
  4. Ruaerikoholic

    Ruaerikoholic XDTalk 100 Member

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    Alright awesome, Does tis round have more common problems then a standard FMJ due to the green tip?
     
  5. agalindo

    agalindo XDTalk 15K Member Founding Member

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    Common problems such as?
     
  6. Cuda66

    Cuda66 XDTalk 10K Member

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    The only problem that M855/SS109 has over most other FMJ is that it's usually more expensive...
     
  7. Ruaerikoholic

    Ruaerikoholic XDTalk 100 Member

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    I was wondering if the tip may have caused more FTE, or FTF's or anything else.
     
  8. agalindo

    agalindo XDTalk 15K Member Founding Member

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    No, why would it? It's just paint.
     
  9. Ruaerikoholic

    Ruaerikoholic XDTalk 100 Member

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    Hence why I was asking questions about the round, I needed info on it. I figured this was appropriate
     
  10. Groo

    Groo XDTalk 10K Member

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    Would the heavier green tips be better in a bone hit than the M193? I'm thinking heavy bones here, not zombie skulls. I imagine they'd be better shooting through windshields and light cover, or is relying on common sense misleading in this case?

    I am thinking of picking up 1k rounds of the SS109, because I think they will be a little better than the FMJ in some situations and not too much worse in the others. They should also better replicate the ballistics of most hunting(non-varmint) and SD ammo too being that they are nearer in weight than the FMJ

    FWIW, It'll be heading out of a 18" 1:9 barrel. I kind of wish it was a 20" 1:12, then there'd be no question what to get.
     
  11. agalindo

    agalindo XDTalk 15K Member Founding Member

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    No the green tips are designed to penetrate light armor not to cause maximum tissue disruption. Why handicap yourself with military fmj bullets?

     
  12. Groo

    Groo XDTalk 10K Member

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    Because they are one heck of a lot cheaper to stock up on. I know there are better bullet designs out there, but it is hard to justify twice the price (or more) of the 55r FMJ. The green tips can be had for about 10% more. That I can justify springing for when doing a bulk purchase. I do intend to get some better bullets too, but the bulk of the cache will by M193 or M855. That is why I was specifically asking between those two....

    If you have a source for cheap JSPs, I am all ears.
     
  13. agalindo

    agalindo XDTalk 15K Member Founding Member

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    Reload.
     
  14. Ruaerikoholic

    Ruaerikoholic XDTalk 100 Member

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    How would this round fair against game. I.e deer?
     
  15. Cuda66

    Cuda66 XDTalk 10K Member

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    It'd be illegal in most states, since it's not an expanding round.
     
  16. agalindo

    agalindo XDTalk 15K Member Founding Member

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    Not well.

    Like I said before, unless your deer signed the Hague Accords of 1899 and 1907 and are using light armor, there are much better non-military rounds. I posted the list above.
     
  17. Boris

    Boris XDTalk 1K Member

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    The dual core green tips will penetrate light armor like any other non AP round out there. M855 ball is designed for fragmentation. I am floored you do not know this. You know an unreal amount about pistol rounds but are not very right about this one.

    Read up a little bit on M855 ball. Velocity above 2700fps will cause fragmentation due to a projectile that weighs 62 grains, but is the length of a 71 grain projectile with the most dense and heaviest portion of the projectile being in the rear. the more dense and heavier rear portion of the core will try to get up front and the front and rear cores will seperate. Velocity below 2700 means the round just yaws, it still does more damage than just punching right through. Fragmentation range for a M4 is 90 meters, M16 has a fragmentation range of 200 meters.

    I think you fellas have M855 and M955 ball confused with one another. M955 ball has a black tip though. It has a Tungsten core that is very pointed and penetrates armor way better than a 5.56 round should.


    For clarification folks. M855 is anti personnel and has a green tip. M955 ball is armor piercing and has a BLACK tip.
     
  18. agalindo

    agalindo XDTalk 15K Member Founding Member

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    The green tip m855 has, like you said a dual core which includes a steel penetrator for penetrating light armor steel. If you'll read the OP he's asking about the green tip.
     
  19. Boris

    Boris XDTalk 1K Member

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    The tiny chunk of steel in M855 is not designed to penetrate armor of anykind. If you look at it the steel "penetrator" has a flat front to it. The solid Tungsten core in M955 has a very pointed, almost sharp tip.

    The term "penetrator" core is made to comply with the law of war. The actual intention of M855 is fragmentation.

    I have but two deployments, but got enough use with M855 and M955 that I can tell you M855 is the last thing you want in your magazine if you need to shoot through a lightly armored target, like a car. M855 will breakup completely if shot through a radiator, wont even harm an engine. Guess what part of a car you shoot at when is hell bent on getting where you are? A quick switch to M955 meant stopping cars much much faster when 5.56 was used.

    M855 does some crazy things when it hits a fleshy target and the projectile fragments.

    The term "penetrator" looks less evil than "fragmentor" core, its real design purpose....
     
  20. Groo

    Groo XDTalk 10K Member

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    it may not be a real AP round, but you better not load it into a pistol.
     

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