SWAT Team Honored For Raid On Wrong House

[Palmguy]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

But the home owner who fired on police officers who were identified as such should also answer for that.

I'm going to have to repeat what I said earlier on this issue. You are making a huge assumption for which I have not seen any convincing evidence; that the homeowner who's house was invaded knew that he was firing at police officers and not people busting into his house with M4s that didn't have a badge on their belt.

You automatically take the side of the thin blue line; instead of even acknowledging the legitimate and even likely possibility that the situation went down as I described in my last post.

Surely if it was as clear cut as you think it is, and given that the officers have been awarded medals for their bravery in facing the sole armed homeowner, that if they could have charged this guy with attempted murder of a LEO they would have.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by Palmguy

I'm going to have to repeat what I said earlier on this issue. You are making a huge assumption for which I have not seen any convincing evidence; that the homeowner who's house was invaded knew that he was firing at police officers and not people busting into his house with M4s that didn't have a badge on their belt.

You automatically take the side of the thin blue line; instead of even acknowledging the legitimate and even likely possibility that the situation went down as I described in my last post.

Surely if it was as clear cut as you think it is, and given that the officers have been awarded medals for their bravery in facing the sole armed homeowner, that if they could have charged this guy with attempted murder of a LEO they would have.

They probably did not charge him out of sympathy for his situation and the police did screw up as well. Why compound his suffering. I have said that both the police and the citizen screwed up. That is taking a middle ground stance not a blue line one. You fail to recognize that firing on police officers in full SWAT gear and department markings is a bad thing.
Pat

[Pharmakon]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

We are having about as much success on the war on drugs as the military is having in Iraq. (not much) As for your support for legalizing drugs it won't work you will simple trade problems less crime for more addicts and social welfare costs going through the roof and you will see 6 year old kids dying from Meth over doses. With increased supply will come even more abuse of the drugs. Also who the hell cares rather the courts have said that police are not required to protect you. Officers still die trying to do just that every year. The only reason the court ruled that way was to keep us out of frivilous law suits. The courts may not have said we have a duty to react but our departments hold us to that standard and more importantly our own conscious. If there is a armed gun man shooting people in a school I am going in regardless of what the supreme court has said. I may die regardless of what their ruling was.

Pat

First of all thank you for maintaining your composure. This a debate not Jerry Springer and I do appreciate you for it.

Secondly, what makes you think legalized drugs will turn this country into a drug addicted cesspool? The same thing that happened after prohibition ended would most likely happen again. Some people would drink responsibly and others wouldn't, as it is today. And life did go on despite the view that you share with the people of that time that it would be the decline of our society if we didn't legislate peoples morality. The fact that crack is illegal does not stop people from ruining their lives with it. It's only when they take responsibility for themselves that they get better. The only difference I see is that we greatly reduce the criminal element and dangerous cartels, not to mention Mexico's chief export (besides Mexicans). This would be a huge relief on law enforcement and boarder security and I bet the violent crime in Mexico would even diminish greatly along the boarder now that many of the drug lords down their just lost the majority of their business. I think it's the "ick" factor that has kept it from happening for so long now. Besides that, a nationwide drug war goes against the principles of federalism to boot. States should decide what drug laws they wish to have.

[Palmguy]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

They probably did not charge him out of sympathy for his situation and the police did screw up as well. Why compound his suffering. I have said that both the police and the citizen screwed up. That is taking a middle ground stance not a blue line one. You fail to recognize that firing on police officers in full SWAT gear and department markings is a bad thing.
Pat

If you know they are cops of course that's a bad thing.

SWAT gear doesn't really mean anything...little Johnny ********* down the street who was been watching Elite Team videos on Youtube might have airsoft gear that resembles SWAT equipment at a cursory glance.

It's also far from clear cut how visible any text/graphics that this department had on their tac gear was in this environment, considering size, placement, angle, color, contrast, lighting, etc. Not to mention the human instinct in a situation like that would very easily focus on the working end of that M4 at the expense of details like a few letters on the sleeve or something.

This could have gone down as simply as 1.) guy hears front door/windows being smashed/knocked down/blasted in...2.) guy grabs shotgun, turns corner and sees men with rifles/shotguns who just busted into his house...3.) man fires at invaders. Did it necessarily go down that way? Of course not. It is well within the realm of possibility though and I find it difficult to place fault on him for that.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

First of all thank you for maintaining your composure. This a debate not Jerry Springer and I do appreciate you for it.

Secondly, what makes you think legalized drugs will turn this country into a drug addicted cesspool? The same thing that happened after prohibition ended would most likely happen again. Some people would drink responsibly and others wouldn't, as it is today. And life did go on despite the view that you share with the people of that time that it would be the decline of our society if we didn't legislate peoples morality. The fact that crack is illegal does not stop people from ruining their lives with it. It's only when they take responsibility for themselves that they get better. The only difference I see is that we greatly reduce the criminal element and dangerous cartels, not to mention Mexico's chief export (besides Mexicans). This would be a huge relief on law enforcement and boarder security and I bet the violent crime in Mexico would even diminish greatly along the boarder now that many of the drug lords down their just lost the majority of their business. I think it's the "ick" factor that has kept it from happening for so long now. Besides that, a nationwide drug war goes against the principles of federalism to boot. States should decide what drug laws they wish to have.

The problem is the serious drugs like meth are so addictive that once someone starts they can't quit. I have yet to see someone kick meth they usually die. If you legalized Marijuana it would not impact us much as alcohol is actually worse for society. But Meth, Coke and other serious drugs really screw people up. Some people don't try drugs simple because it is illegal.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by Palmguy

If you know they are cops of course that's a bad thing.

SWAT gear doesn't really mean anything...little Johnny ********* down the street who was been watching Elite Team videos on Youtube might have airsoft gear that resembles SWAT equipment at a cursory glance.

It's also far from clear cut how visible any text/graphics that this department had on their tac gear was in this environment, considering size, placement, angle, color, contrast, lighting, etc. Not to mention the human instinct in a situation like that would very easily focus on the working end of that M4 at the expense of details like a few letters on the sleeve or something.

This could have gone down as simply as 1.) guy hears front door/windows being smashed/knocked down/blasted in...2.) guy grabs shotgun, turns corner and sees men with rifles/shotguns who just busted into his house...3.) man fires at invaders. Did it necessarily go down that way? Of course not. It is well within the realm of possibility though and I find it difficult to place fault on him for that.

Part of the problem in this situation was the home owner did not speak english so he did not understand the words Police. But its my old fashioned view if you want to live here you should learn the language. Rant off.

Also police SWAT uniforms usually say Police in Bold letters across the front and or back and they have an agency patch on each shoulder. The home owner did not make sure of his target before he fired a gun safety rule. For the record I don't think any medals should be handed out in a botched raid.
Pat

[MGD 45]

You also have to account for the extremely addicting quality of the hardcore drugs over marijuana & alcohol.

Someone can experiment with a beer or joint at a party in college & it won't ruin their life.....let them take one hit on Meth or crack or other hardcore drugs.....well, the outcome is much worse.

[Cannibul]

Stoners love to compare pot with alcohol.

But in my mind there is a big difference. I can have a beer or two and NOT get drunk and have no intention of getting drunk.

When someone lights up a joint they are doing so ONLY to get high. They don't do it for the taste or anything else. The ONLY reason is to get high.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by Cannibul

Stoners love to compare pot with alcohol.

But in my mind there is a big difference. I can have a beer or two and NOT get drunk and have no intention of getting drunk.

When someone lights up a joint they are doing so ONLY to get high. They don't do it for the taste or anything else. The ONLY reason is to get high.

I don't care for alcoholics or stonners. So I have no dog in the fight but both do what they do for the same reasons. Stonners and drinkers drink to escape reality. I would rather deal with a stonner on a call vs a drunk. Drunks are violent and dangerious. Pot heads are mellow and not into violence. As for you being able to have a beer or two and not keep going there are pot heads like that with marijuana. I am not defending either drug. Be aware they are both drugs our society seems to forget that alcohol is a mind altering drug as well.
Pat