SWAT Team Honored For Raid On Wrong House

[Palmguy]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

And in this case the citizen was not innocent he was firing on police officers who identified themselves as such who where wearing uniforms with police markings. That is far from innocent. Yes the police screwed up by going to the wrong house. The home owner screwed up by not properly identifying the threat before opening fire.
Pat

Why was the homeowner not charged with attempted murder of a police officer then?

I give the guy the benefit of the doubt; he hears obvious sounds of intrusion and sees armed invaders. I'm guessing his mind naturally focused on the muzzle of the M4 carried by the guy who just kicked in his door as opposed to whatever letters may have been on the guy's vest.

[I_Route]

Originally Posted by Palmguy

Why was the homeowner not charged with attempted murder of a police officer then?

I give the guy the benefit of the doubt; he hears obvious sounds of intrusion and sees armed invaders. I'm guessing his mind naturally focused on the muzzle of the M4 carried by the guy who just kicked in his door as opposed to whatever letters may have been on the guy's vest.

Exactly. If my door gets hammered in at O-dark-thirty, I doubt it is AVON calling or FTD with my birthday bouquet.

[Pharmakon]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

When drug dealers are firing rounds your way its a war zone buddy. When people are shooting at you it makes little difference rather your uniform is camo or navy blue with a shinny badge. Military blunders are on the rise as well. They are taking felons, people are getting killed who are unarmed and women and getting raped. So do we junk the military for a few bad apples (more bad apples on a percentage basis by far due to lower standards) no of course not same goes for SWAT.

And in this case the citizen was not innocent he was firing on police officers who identified themselves as such who where wearing uniforms with police markings. That is far from innocent. Yes the police screwed up by going to the wrong house. The home owner screwed up by not properly identifying the threat before opening fire.
Pat

I didn't say anything about disbanding SWAT. Swat is a necessary tool, it is how they are used and the lack of accountability cops often enjoy when they damage the lives and liberty of their fellow citizens that I take issue with.

If you see no difference between a battlefield and law enforcement I'm not sure I know what to suggest. I'll describe them anonymously and lets see if you can tell the difference.

One, you have an organized force of enemy combatants where if you need to breach someones door w/a shotgun to provide cover for your men or suspect enemy presence there that's exactly what you do. Warrants are not needed you are already warranted to do so. Bombs are going off, air raids kill and horribly mame dozens at a time, shells are destroying property and innocent people will die. All the while .30 rounds are flying your way along with the occasional RPG. Ramming cars and even people out of the way with your vehicles is the best option you have to avoid an ambush or worse and is totally acceptable. People can be held at gun point for suspicion and are often mishandled. And their are worse examples in history.

The other scenario is you have a team of men break the silence of night in a free country, scaring the crap out of whoever is inside where you will enjoy overwhelming odds and enduring return fire gets you a medal. Mind you these people are Americans but if you have to gun them down to save your own skin (while you are infringing on their private property) you will never serve one day of time. Unlike the inhabitants of the house who if alive are now criminals for reacting to your intrusion. Who would think that it may frighten someone.

The fact that you liken war to law enforcement of your own citizens is either inhumane or misinformed.

*disclaimer: I do not hate cops

[GARDNER]

DING DING DING! We have a winner! Great post!

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

I didn't say anything about disbanding SWAT. Swat is a necessary tool, it is how they are used and the lack of accountability cops often enjoy when they damage the lives and liberty of their fellow citizens that I take issue with.

If you see no difference between a battlefield and law enforcement I'm not sure I know what to suggest. I'll describe them anonymously and lets see if you can tell the difference.

One, you have an organized force of enemy combatants where if you need to breach someones door w/a shotgun to provide cover for your men or suspect enemy presence there that's exactly what you do. Warrants are not needed you are already warranted to do so. Bombs are going off, air raids kill and horribly mame dozens at a time, shells are destroying property and innocent people will die. All the while .30 rounds are flying your way along with the occasional RPG. Ramming cars and even people out of the way with your vehicles is the best option you have to avoid an ambush or worse and is totally acceptable. People can be held at gun point for suspicion and are often mishandled. And their are worse examples in history.

The other scenario is you have a team of men break the silence of night in a free country, scaring the crap out of whoever is inside where you will enjoy overwhelming odds and enduring return fire gets you a medal. Mind you these people are Americans but if you have to gun them down to save your own skin (while you are infringing on their private property) you will never serve one day of time. Unlike the inhabitants of the house who if alive are now criminals for reacting to your intrusion. Who would think that it may frighten someone.

The fact that you liken war to law enforcement of your own citizens is either inhumane or misinformed.

*disclaimer: I do not hate cops

It is a war. The war on crime, the war on drugs the war on terror. I am sure you have heard those catch phrases. When people are fighting you and trying to kill you its war. It may not be a full scale no holds barred conflict like Iraq. But its still war. I believe in accountability for everyone. The person who was responsible for getting the address wrong should answer for that. But the home owner who fired on police officers who were identified as such should also answer for that. There were two screw up in this situation not just one. 2007 was a bad year for cops dying in the line of duty. Perhaps you place more value on the life of a service man in the military who dies over seas. I treat the loss equally. Both died defending this country. One from a threat from without and one from a threat from within.
Pat

[eric_t12]

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

I didn't say anything about disbanding SWAT. Swat is a necessary tool, it is how they are used and the lack of accountability cops often enjoy when they damage the lives and liberty of their fellow citizens that I take issue with.

If you see no difference between a battlefield and law enforcement I'm not sure I know what to suggest. I'll describe them anonymously and lets see if you can tell the difference.

One, you have an organized force of enemy combatants where if you need to breach someones door w/a shotgun to provide cover for your men or suspect enemy presence there that's exactly what you do. Warrants are not needed you are already warranted to do so. Bombs are going off, air raids kill and horribly mame dozens at a time, shells are destroying property and innocent people will die. All the while .30 rounds are flying your way along with the occasional RPG. Ramming cars and even people out of the way with your vehicles is the best option you have to avoid an ambush or worse and is totally acceptable. People can be held at gun point for suspicion and are often mishandled. And their are worse examples in history.

The other scenario is you have a team of men break the silence of night in a free country, scaring the crap out of whoever is inside where you will enjoy overwhelming odds and enduring return fire gets you a medal. Mind you these people are Americans but if you have to gun them down to save your own skin (while you are infringing on their private property) you will never serve one day of time. Unlike the inhabitants of the house who if alive are now criminals for reacting to your intrusion. Who would think that it may frighten someone.

The fact that you liken war to law enforcement of your own citizens is either inhumane or misinformed.

*disclaimer: I do not hate cops

wow, amazing.

i couldn't have said it better myself.

[eric_t12]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

It is a war. The war on crime, the war on drugs the war on terror. Pat

catch phrases is all they are, too.

war on crime?? never even heard that, much less seen anyone winning it.

war on drugs? how long has that been going on, and how good are you doing at it? there are more drugs in schools nowadays then at any time in the history of the country. kindergardeners with dope and prescription drugs...

you want to win the war on drugs? make them legal. no more cash cow - all the organized crime is gone. it happened after prohibition was repealed on alcohol, it'll happen here too, most likely.

don't even get me started on the war on terror.



and they may die protecting the country from within, but they hold almost 0 liability to protect the citizens in it. read my signature.

ETA: the laws you are trying to enforce (usually drug-laws) create the criminals who kill us (by starting black markets for the once-legal substances) and the police. that seems to say something.

you're now dying to protect the country (read: the government and your fellow police, who are government agents) from... itself.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by eric_t12

catch phrases is all they are, too.

war on crime?? never even heard that, much less seen anyone winning it.

war on drugs? how long has that been going on, and how good are you doing at it? there are more drugs in schools nowadays then at any time in the history of the country. kindergardeners with dope and prescription drugs...

you want to win the war on drugs? make them legal. no more cash cow - all the organized crime is gone. it happened after prohibition was repealed on alcohol, it'll happen here too, most likely.

don't even get me started on the war on terror.



and they may die protecting the country from within, but they hold almost 0 liability to protect the citizens in it. read my signature.

ETA: the laws you are trying to enforce (usually drug-laws) create the criminals who kill us (by starting black markets for the once-legal substances) and the police. that seems to say something.

you're now dying to protect the country (read: the government and your fellow police, who are government agents) from... itself.

We are having about as much success on the war on drugs as the military is having in Iraq. (not much) As for your support for legalizing drugs it won't work you will simple trade problems less crime for more addicts and social welfare costs going through the roof and you will see 6 year old kids dying from Meth over doses. With increased supply will come even more abuse of the drugs. Also who the hell cares rather the courts have said that police are not required to protect you. Officers still die trying to do just that every year. The only reason the court ruled that way was to keep us out of frivilous law suits. The courts may not have said we have a duty to react but our departments hold us to that standard and more importantly our own conscious. If there is a armed gun man shooting people in a school I am going in regardless of what the supreme court has said. I may die regardless of what their ruling was.

Pat

[Yuppicide]

Originally Posted by eric_t12

You want to win the war on drugs? make them legal. no more cash cow - all the organized crime is gone. it happened after prohibition was repealed on alcohol, it'll happen here too, most likely.
......the laws you are trying to enforce (usually drug-laws) create the criminals who kill us (by starting black markets for the once-legal substances) and the police. that seems to say something.

you're now dying to protect the country (read: the government and your fellow police, who are government agents) from... itself.

+10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.92

When Prohibition was finally repealed, a reporter asked Elliot Ness what he was going to do NOW?

"I think I'll have go have a drink" he replied


.

[XDCC]

I didn't take the time to read 11 pages of people bashing each other but I will put in my .02. All of those involved in giving awards should be embarrassed. Far too many mistakes were made to do anything but try to figure out where things went wrong and try to correct the problems so that they are less likely to occur again in the future. If everyone learns from this type of incident then it didn't happen for nothing.