More Gov't Waste

[nickb]

Originally Posted by Ishpeck

"Government waste."

"Idiotic stupidity."

"Deadly murder."

"Redundant repetitions."

Straight from the Department of Redundancy Department.

[eric_t12]

Its not just the air force.

If you've ever been inside a command TOC, you'll know what i'm talking about.




or seen what the General rides in, while the soldiers ride in HMMWVs... at least the MRAP is around now... :s

[billbrasky]

from a pure business standpoint it makes sense to have the high paid decision makers be more effecient, if that means a quiter more luxurious cabin with some amenties of first class commerical travel i am fine with that. Its not like most of out top level government be it a big city mayor, a governor, vp etc does with out and lives anything like your average blue collar joe public.

the total amount of 7.6 million is not shocking in the leat bit, do you guys know what it costs to outfit a lear jet and customize it, not radical custom like a pimp my car custom, i mean your choice of materials inside, colors etc. from a standard list. It can cost more than the bare plane, it can cost 5-15 million to outfit a business class lear jet with chairs, tvs, communications etc.
I am not sure anyone else buys pods to be pulle in side cargo jets .... so i imagine that is a custom pod? $$$$$ right there by itself before the interiors, just the enginering and testing on the bare pods.

HERES government waste for ya guys, million dollar public toilets. Allready decommisioned and for sale for $89 k lol. GENUIS.
From the desk of Ted Mathis: Wanna Buy A Million Dollar Toilet?

THE TOILET ROOM is about 8x8 and not built to military spec, it doesnt move, its not aerospace, its not luxury, but somehow costs a million bucks.

Some of you guys i dont think have a good grasp on manufacturing costs, and unit costs, if you only build a few units of somethign millions of dollars of R&D get passed onto just a few units. I personally want the Military to take up civilian big shots in the article safely, i want good PR, i want the generals well rested, i want time flying across the ocean spent communicating in best conditions to be effecient use of time. Not having 60 year old men sit on steel straigh back chairs twiddling there thumbs with ear protection on from the noise on a 12 hour flight, out of spite for the power structure. Get priorities straight guys, generals are not 18 year old kids. I dont think you get to be a 4 star general out of college either so obviously these guys served there time, and are still serving in old age.

Some of you guys should look up some stories on detroit school board offices. They spent over $1,000,000 pimping out an elevator that was already there. 1 million in brass, gold, marble and lighting in one elevator. They have sweet art collection. The detroit school board president has a $100,000 wood desk, i have seen both Wall mart head quarters, and detroit school board, one is a sucessful company, one is the shame of the great state of michigan, and the wall mart guys work in a none descript steel sided 3 story building with 20 year old furnature, that looks like it wasnt that great 20 years ago. DPS thinks they are sultans or shieks or kings of industry and needs to be pampered accordingly. THATS WASTE.

[Feydakin]

Originally Posted by billbrasky

from a pure business standpoint it makes sense to have the high paid decision makers be more effecient, if that means a quiter more luxurious cabin with some amenties of first class commerical travel i am fine with that. Its not like most of out top level government be it a big city mayor, a governor, vp etc does with out and lives anything like your average blue collar joe public.

the total amount of 7.6 million is not shocking in the leat bit, do you guys know what it costs to outfit a lear jet and customize it, not radical custom like a pimp my car custom, i mean your choice of materials inside, colors etc. from a standard list. It can cost more than the bare plane, it can cost 5-15 million to outfit a business class lear jet with chairs, tvs, communications etc.
I am not sure anyone else buys pods to be pulle in side cargo jets .... so i imagine that is a custom pod? $$$$$ right there by itself before the interiors, just the enginering and testing on the bare pods.

HERES government waste for ya guys, million dollar public toilets. Allready decommisioned and for sale for $89 k lol. GENUIS.
From the desk of Ted Mathis: Wanna Buy A Million Dollar Toilet?

THE TOILET ROOM is about 8x8 and not built to military spec, it doesnt move, its not aerospace, its not luxury, but somehow costs a million bucks.

Some of you guys i dont think have a good grasp on manufacturing costs, and unit costs, if you only build a few units of somethign millions of dollars of R&D get passed onto just a few units. I personally want the Military to take up civilian big shots in the article safely, i want good PR, i want the generals well rested, i want time flying across the ocean spent communicating in best conditions to be effecient use of time. Not having 60 year old men sit on steel straigh back chairs twiddling there thumbs with ear protection on from the noise on a 12 hour flight, out of spite for the power structure. Get priorities straight guys, generals are not 18 year old kids. I dont think you get to be a 4 star general out of college either so obviously these guys served there time, and are still serving in old age.

Some of you guys should look up some stories on detroit school board offices. They spent over $1,000,000 pimping out an elevator that was already there. 1 million in brass, gold, marble and lighting in one elevator. They have sweet art collection. The detroit school board president has a $100,000 wood desk, i have seen both Wall mart head quarters, and detroit school board, one is a sucessful company, one is the shame of the great state of michigan, and the wall mart guys work in a none descript steel sided 3 story building with 20 year old furnature, that looks like it wasnt that great 20 years ago. DPS thinks they are sultans or shieks or kings of industry and needs to be pampered accordingly. THATS WASTE.

Bill, the problem with your post is that they already have a large number of dedicated VIP planes for use in ferrying top government officials around. These pods would slide inside the bays on cargo aircraft, and if you have ever been in the service and flown anywhere inside a military cargo plane you would know that this little pod is not really going to make them as comfortable as a dedicated VIP plane. Also, if they are flying a 4 star general anywhere that is takes 12 hours to get to, you can bet the cargo plane is only going to cover the last, short hop from the nearest base to the final destination. Personally I think it is good for the top brass to get a reminder of what the 'troops' deal with when they travel via military transport, even if it is only that last little part of their trip.
You are correct that you don't get to be a 4 star general out of college, but the thing you are forgetting is what something like this does to the morale of the people who are actually fighting. A general worthy of the title learned that lesson on his rise to the rank.
Also, there is the fact that money was diverted from funds set aside to combat terrorism and not from some transportation or general fund. That money was never meant to be used on something like this and that is what really bothers me! I have also included a quote, from the article itself, below on what Congress thinks of this whole mess. I mean if Congress is calling it wasteful spending, and we KNOW what experts they are in that area, then that should tell you something right there ;-P

In all, for the past three years the service has asked to divert $16.2 million to the effort from what the military calls the GWOT, or global war on terrorism. Congress has twice told the service that it cannot, including an August 2007 letter from Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) to the Pentagon ordering that the money be spent on a "higher priority" need.
Officials say the Air Force nonetheless decided last year to take $331,000 from counterterrorism funds to cover a cost overrun, partly stemming from the design changes, although a senior officer said yesterday in response to inquiries that it will reverse that decision.

[billbrasky]

Originally Posted by Feydakin

Bill, the problem with your post is that they already have a large number of dedicated VIP planes for use in ferrying top government officials around. These pods would slide inside the bays on cargo aircraft, and if you have ever been in the service and flown anywhere inside a military cargo plane you would know that this little pod is not really going to make them as comfortable as a dedicated VIP plane. Also, if they are flying a 4 star general anywhere that is takes 12 hours to get to, you can bet the cargo plane is only going to cover the last, short hop from the nearest base to the final destination. Personally I think it is good for the top brass to get a reminder of what the 'troops' deal with when they travel via military transport, even if it is only that last little part of their trip.
You are correct that you don't get to be a 4 star general out of college, but the thing you are forgetting is what something like this does to the morale of the people who are actually fighting. A general worthy of the title learned that lesson on his rise to the rank.
Also, there is the fact that money was diverted from funds set aside to combat terrorism and not from some transportation or general fund. That money was never meant to be used on something like this and that is what really bothers me! I have also included a quote, from the article itself, below on what Congress thinks of this whole mess. I mean if Congress is calling it wasteful spending, and we KNOW what experts they are in that area, then that should tell you something right there ;-P

yes i understood from the begining they were pods inserted in cargo carriers.


well if the generals or whom ever over see or contribute to the war on terror i dont see it so much as fraud, anymore than buying corwn vic and panel vans and pick up for field agents is fraud. I dont disagree i wish the governemnt from top to bottom would be much much more lean, i honestly think you could trim the budget of almsot everydepartment every bureau every agency, and if run as a trim business, not a place you push papers for 6 hours a day, you could cut the budgets in half. Of course the workers would have to have some basic level of committment, devotion etc. Its doable for most agencies, if not total buget, atleast in new expendatures, on product, upkeep, etc. You basically get rewarding for spending in all levels of government, your stature as a leader is greater the larger the budget and more poeple you oversee, and if you dont spend the money one year you dont get it the next year. You spend money you dont have to on stuff you dont want or need as part of your job. Its very perverse, i dont see this as being particularly wasteful, in total dollars or in use.

I think there has to be some level of stealth in flying big shots in a plain jane cargo carrier, with a luxury $30 million business jet, if you are going into a war zone. Its like drawing attention to the commanding officer in the field battle scenario, the enemy aims for the leader to drive things into chaos.

7.6 million one time cost and they use it for say what ? 5- 10 years maybe ? thats not a bad deal.

You need to look into all the self inflicted red tape the government as a whole afixes to itself, from using union labor, to committees on committees, ou end up with dirt floor 3 million dollar outhouses in state parks (not a joke its in john stossels book with a picture of it)

I just dont like the military being under a microscope and we pay people to not work, did you know the administrative costs for well far are about 3 times the cost we pay out? Isnt that crazy? example we pay out 13k and it costs us 45k to give out the 13k for total of darn near 60 k to have one person not work. Thats the government we have.

[Icey101]

Spend millions of dollars sending letters to people letting them know later they might get a check in the mail...

I really hate the way our military budget system works. You are not rewarded for saving money really, sure I might save several thousand dollars finding something for a cheaper price...but that money will be used for something else...even if it is not really needed. If we don't spend it...we won't get it next year. So there really is no reward for saving, penny pinching and such.

What normally happens is we penny pinch throughout the year, so when the end of the year comes...we have a huge pile of money to buy a bunch of things..that we need, want...might need...hell might want. If we don't spend it someone else will get it then get to spend it themselves.

But I really can not see a better way to do it, without adding even more layers to the process we have to go through to buy items.

[Feydakin]

Originally Posted by billbrasky

yes i understood from the begining they were pods inserted in cargo carriers.


well if the generals or whom ever over see or contribute to the war on terror i dont see it so much as fraud, anymore than buying corwn vic and panel vans and pick up for field agents is fraud. I dont disagree i wish the governemnt from top to bottom would be much much more lean, i honestly think you could trim the budget of almsot everydepartment every bureau every agency, and if run as a trim business, not a place you push papers for 6 hours a day, you could cut the budgets in half. Of course the workers would have to have some basic level of committment, devotion etc. Its doable for most agencies, if not total buget, atleast in new expendatures, on product, upkeep, etc. You basically get rewarding for spending in all levels of government, your stature as a leader is greater the larger the budget and more poeple you oversee, and if you dont spend the money one year you dont get it the next year. You spend money you dont have to on stuff you dont want or need as part of your job. Its very perverse, i dont see this as being particularly wasteful, in total dollars or in use.

I think there has to be some level of stealth in flying big shots in a plain jane cargo carrier, with a luxury $30 million business jet, if you are going into a war zone. Its like drawing attention to the commanding officer in the field battle scenario, the enemy aims for the leader to drive things into chaos.

7.6 million one time cost and they use it for say what ? 5- 10 years maybe ? thats not a bad deal.

You need to look into all the self inflicted red tape the government as a whole afixes to itself, from using union labor, to committees on committees, ou end up with dirt floor 3 million dollar outhouses in state parks (not a joke its in john stossels book with a picture of it)

I just dont like the military being under a microscope and we pay people to not work, did you know the administrative costs for well far are about 3 times the cost we pay out? Isnt that crazy? example we pay out 13k and it costs us 45k to give out the 13k for total of darn near 60 k to have one person not work. Thats the government we have.

You are still missing the point on what part of the flight you use the 'stealth' for the bigshots. They will use the pod for the flight from the nearest base in friendly territory into the war zone area, so a couple of hours flying time at most. To me they can handle the short flight in the cargo plane without the luxury pod! You still have the same effect of bringing the general in without the enemy 'knowing' without spending millions for this pod to use on a 1-2 hour flight!
Your analogy comparing buying transport for field agents does not hold up. That would be the same as the Air Force using the funds to uparmor humvee's or buy more rhino's for the field soldiers guarding the aircraft. I have no problem with that.
You are also ignoring the morale issues it causes with the troops when they find out the generals are redirecting funds for a luxury ride and they don't have proper equipment in the field. I speak from experience in the military in how that sort of information will drive down morale. If you do as I suggest and let the generals use existing aircraft, and put that money into supporting troops in the field with things like body armor, proper equipment, safer transport, then you will end up bring far more troops home safely. I don't know about you, but I will live with a few generals having to rough it for an hour or two if it will keep one of our soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines in the field safer and increase their chance of coming home alive and unharmed!

[billbrasky]

Originally Posted by Feydakin

You are still missing the point on what part of the flight you use the 'stealth' for the bigshots. They will use the pod for the flight from the nearest base in friendly territory into the war zone area, so a couple of hours flying time at most. To me they can handle the short flight in the cargo plane without the luxury pod! You still have the same effect of bringing the general in without the enemy 'knowing' without spending millions for this pod to use on a 1-2 hour flight!
Your analogy comparing buying transport for field agents does not hold up. That would be the same as the Air Force using the funds to uparmor humvee's or buy more rhino's for the field soldiers guarding the aircraft. I have no problem with that.
You are also ignoring the morale issues it causes with the troops when they find out the generals are redirecting funds for a luxury ride and they don't have proper equipment in the field. I speak from experience in the military in how that sort of information will drive down morale. If you do as I suggest and let the generals use existing aircraft, and put that money into supporting troops in the field with things like body armor, proper equipment, safer transport, then you will end up bring far more troops home safely. I don't know about you, but I will live with a few generals having to rough it for an hour or two if it will keep one of our soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines in the field safer and increase their chance of coming home alive and unharmed!

i am as pro troop as one can get with out forgetting it is s job, and we dont owe them the job with out the possibility of war .... which some folks seem to think the military is just for postage stamps and for parades, and the blue angels and never to be used. That aside i am VERY pro troop, i would like to see the money go to body armor and upgradeing the bottoms of the hummers and the tropp carriers that all the IEDs seem to get the most bang for the buck.

I think most troops are sophisticated enough to know they are not generals, and are not to be treated the same. The commanding officer gets treated nicer than a grunt dont they ? They have officers quarters, all sorts of perks. Generals are just many runs up the ladder, they earned it. Lets say you work retail not military, you are jealous your boss gets a company car. Would the company be better off taking the car away to make guys at the bottom a little more happy, even though they are at the bottom and might never be happy, untill they are off the bottom rung, nothing makes them happy. They are more happy knowing others are less happy. Having a pod and troops with proper gear need not be mutually exclusive. We can do both very easily.

SURE MY ANOLOGY holds up, its not perferct use, its not core use, it helps though, it is transportation thats the same. We could micro manage the ink jets, paper quality, light bulbs, if they use fancy floor polish, or keep the air conditiioning to low, buy needlessly powerful computers, and give to many agents Gubment credit cards that arent monitored enogh. There is a whole host of stuff we can look at in the war on terror and say if we didnt spend X then we could hire X more agents, or have them with X better monitoring equipement etc. Its a return on investment stuff, having big shot important folks in a fancy pod is not particularly wasteful, doing that for 100,000 troops is wasteful. Look at a generals office all the fancy wood desks, shelfs, i would wager the average generals office has 2 dozen picture frames costing over $200 each, thats almost 5 grand in picture frames for christ sake. We could make them thumb tack diplomoas and awards to the wall and buy 3 sets of body armor with the picture frame money.

How about the full time staff of the general, lets make him handle his own calls on a cell phone and PDA.

The generals oversee huge budgets, thousands of folks, and the government has spent millions on training and educating them. There time is $$$$ they are not much different than a CEO, i jsut dont see 7.6 million as a huge deal if this is used in war zone or terror zones then its for the cause, its not like they are taking it to hawaii, and the carribean and french riviera.

[Feydakin]

Originally Posted by billbrasky

i am as pro troop as one can get with out forgetting it is s job, and we dont owe them the job with out the possibility of war .... which some folks seem to think the military is just for postage stamps and for parades, and the blue angels and never to be used. That aside i am VERY pro troop, i would like to see the money go to body armor and upgradeing the bottoms of the hummers and the tropp carriers that all the IEDs seem to get the most bang for the buck.

I think most troops are sophisticated enough to know they are not generals, and are not to be treated the same. The commanding officer gets treated nicer than a grunt dont they ? They have officers quarters, all sorts of perks. Generals are just many runs up the ladder, they earned it. Lets say you work retail not military, you are jealous your boss gets a company car. Would the company be better off taking the car away to make guys at the bottom a little more happy, even though they are at the bottom and might never be happy, untill they are off the bottom rung, nothing makes them happy. They are more happy knowing others are less happy. Having a pod and troops with proper gear need not be mutually exclusive. We can do both very easily.

SURE MY ANOLOGY holds up, its not perferct use, its not core use, it helps though, it is transportation thats the same. We could micro manage the ink jets, paper quality, light bulbs, if they use fancy floor polish, or keep the air conditiioning to low, buy needlessly powerful computers, and give to many agents Gubment credit cards that arent monitored enogh. There is a whole host of stuff we can look at in the war on terror and say if we didnt spend X then we could hire X more agents, or have them with X better monitoring equipement etc. Its a return on investment stuff, having big shot important folks in a fancy pod is not particularly wasteful, doing that for 100,000 troops is wasteful. Look at a generals office all the fancy wood desks, shelfs, i would wager the average generals office has 2 dozen picture frames costing over $200 each, thats almost 5 grand in picture frames for christ sake. We could make them thumb tack diplomoas and awards to the wall and buy 3 sets of body armor with the picture frame money.

How about the full time staff of the general, lets make him handle his own calls on a cell phone and PDA.

The generals oversee huge budgets, thousands of folks, and the government has spent millions on training and educating them. There time is $$$$ they are not much different than a CEO, i jsut dont see 7.6 million as a huge deal if this is used in war zone or terror zones then its for the cause, its not like they are taking it to hawaii, and the carribean and french riviera.

I certainly hope you were not directing "i am as pro troop as one can get with out forgetting it is s job, and we dont owe them the job with out the possibility of war" at me. I actually served for 8 years and was in the Navy during the first Gulf War and spent quite a bit of time in the Persian Gulf. I am quite aware that the military is not just a job without the possibility of going to war. Hence my stance that the money needs to go necessities and not luxuries.
Make up your mind here Bill. You say you want the troops to have the proper equipment, and then spend the rest of your post telling us why it's ok for the generals to spend millions on a luxury for themselves. You say we can do both very easily, yet you fail to make a convincing argument as to how that can happen. You have been talking about budgets and yet you are missing the fact that the Air Force has a budget just for transportation, but the Air Force is not taking the money from their transportation budget to fund this pod. They are taking it from the money set aside for combat. If it is a valid expense, then why when they were caught funneling the $331,000 to cover cost overruns did they say the decision to do so was being reversed? Sounds like they are admitting they were wrong to me.
As to your comparison of a general to a CEO, that is valid in this case as they both seem to believe it is ok to indulge themslves in luxuries. The average CEO has gone from making 42 times the average workers salary in 1980, to 85 times the salary in 1990 to around 531 times that of the average hourly worker by 2000. (CEOs Are Overpaid). Yet during that same period I don't think anyone would say the average company's value has increased at the same rate. Just because someone is a CEO or a general does not mean they are not accountable. The main difference is that low morale in a civilian company is not likely to get you killed or wounded, while low morale in our troops on the front lines has been proven time and again to lead to injury and death.