Not the best decision...

[nickb]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

NO he said he had three bears three hours. DUI drivers tell me crap like that all the time before they blow .2 on the Data Master. Guns and alcohol don't mix and this incident just makes it more clear as to why.
Pat

If I had 3 bears in 3 hours I'd be full and need a long nap.

But tell if this is true. I've heard stories from local PO about drivers performing field tests just fine and blowing well over the limit. Can this happen?

[tjg4]

I don't know how it is in most states, but in Utah ironically you CAN carry into a bar but you cannot carry a gun while intoxicated. Don't risk it. don't drink and carry.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by nickb

If I had 3 bears in 3 hours I'd be full and need a long nap.

But tell if this is true. I've heard stories from local PO about drivers performing field tests just fine and blowing well over the limit. Can this happen?

There are three standard field sobriety tests that are DOT accepted the first is Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus (involuntary twitching of the eye as it follows a moving object) the next test is the Walk and Turn test and the last is the One Leg Stand test. The other tests cops use sometimes like counting or the Alphabet are not certified. The Walk and Turn and the One Leg Stand can be passed by a drinking who has a high alcohol tolerance but the HGN test always tells the truth. We can arrest even if you pass the Walk and Turn and the One Leg Stand so long as you fail the HGN. The reason is the HGN is 77% reliable for showing a person is over .10 its an even higher percentage at .08.
Pat

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

You should not drink and carry period. Laws vary but if you make it to the point you should not drive you should also not carry a gun. In my state you can not carry into a bar with a gun. You can into a resturaunt that serves alcohol so long as you do not drink. So basically no drinking and carrying.
Pat

I think you misunderstand. I don't walk home from the bar or restaraunt because I get blottoed and can't drive. I live in a city. I walk home because there are plenty of places within walking distance of my home.

I'd agree and I said it before, you should not get a snootful if you are carrying a gun. But refraining from having a couple of beers or drinks with dinner is not a standard I can live with.

In PA, there is no law that prohibits drinking and carrying, other than the "catch alls."

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

NO he said he had three bears three hours.

I made a mistake on calculating the time (and I wasn't drinking).

What he said is all the evidence that exists on that issue until a toxicology report comes in.

Don't misunderstand. As I said in my original post, I don't think this guy did the right thing. There is no way I would have done what he did and I don't agree with what he did. But I'm also not willing to string him up based on a report in a newspaper.

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by Bree

When it comes to drugs and alcohol, I disagree... one size does fit all... ZERO TOLERANCE.

You already said that.

I haven't surveyed the laws to see what the maximum BAC's are by state if any. I know that Michigan has a .02 BAC for CCW. I know that Minnesota had a bill that would have voided a CCW if there was ANY detactable BAC. I don't think it passed but it was on the table. I would have supported that bill if I had been a Minnesotan.

In PA there is no "drinking and carrying" law. We go by the general law of don't act like a fool, drunk or sober, and you don't get arrested.

I am only talking about actually drinking (or taking controlled substances) and carrying. It this respect, I think any consumption at all should cause you to leave your gun at home. With our rights under assault one of the best ways to keep our rights is to eliminate unforced errors... prevent stupid stuff from causing unnecessary incidents.... and drinking and carrying is an invitation to stupid stuff.

I live in a city and go out for dinner almost every evening. I also like to have a drink or two with dinner and then walk home with my wife. Walking around at night unarmed is an invitation to stupid stuff. If you think I should have a choice of either remaining a prisoner in my home or being disarmed while living my daily life, then I already have no rights to lose. I do promise not to do stupid stuff that would ruin it for everyone else though.

The technical aspect relates to the effect of alcohol on processing multiple inputs simultaneously. Self defense with a handgun requires coordination of fine mental determinations about the nature and degree of threat, danger to innocent bystanders, projected path of your projectile, methods of defense available etc. with the physical motor skills necessary to retrieve your gun from concealment, draw and mount the weapon, aim and fire it.

Actually, in the city it gets a lot simpler. There are very few situations where using a gun is considered appropriate. When someone starts to shoot at you, move off the X, look out for bystanders (not too many people shoot at you with witnessess around so that's not much of an issue) and if necessary, shoot back. If they're not shooting at you then they're generally not that much of a problem, at least not yet. More seriously, if someone is robbing you at gunpoint, it's hard to f up that that's what's happening and there won't be people around as bystanders to avoid. There's not a whole lot of fine mental and physical response to ponder. You need to do something. If that something includes returning fire to motivate them to go away rather than chase after you, then returning fire becomes a pretty good idea.

There is a lot going on at one time. It is just like riding a motorcycle. Multiple inputs combined with multiple judgements and physical actions. Research shows that even a single drink interferes with the proper operation of this processing. With life at stake, there is no room for unnecessary impairment. For that reason, I believe in the zero tolerance policy for all.

I promise not to ride my motorcycle when I've had a couple of drinks and someone is trying to kill me.

[Bree]

I stand by my position. We disagree and you haven't convinced me that it's OK to have a couple of drinks and carry a gun. So it doesn;t look like we are going to be on the same wavelength on this particular issue.

[Jugghead98]

If I think that there might be a chance that I will want to have a drink, I will leave my CC at home. I have never had trouble with making rash decisions and have been in some very threatning and scary situations.

CCW as you all know is an enormous responsibility. However in my humble opinion my life is not of more value than an innocent person that I may harm while using my firearm under the influence.

Rather than judge this man I will say that from my point of view, when I try to put myself in his shoes I know that I would have had to detain this person without a firearm. I know this because if I had been drinking I would not have my firearm.

[nickb]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

There are three standard field sobriety tests that are DOT accepted the first is Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus (involuntary twitching of the eye as it follows a moving object) the next test is the Walk and Turn test and the last is the One Leg Stand test. The other tests cops use sometimes like counting or the Alphabet are not certified. The Walk and Turn and the One Leg Stand can be passed by a drinking who has a high alcohol tolerance but the HGN test always tells the truth. We can arrest even if you pass the Walk and Turn and the One Leg Stand so long as you fail the HGN. The reason is the HGN is 77% reliable for showing a person is over .10 its an even higher percentage at .08.
Pat

Great info here Pat, thanks. But the last part confused me.

Why would the HGN show a higher reliability for lower levels of BA?

And it seems that someone with a high alcohol tolerance would not be impaired at the same BA as someone who never drinks.

I'm not condoning drinking and packing. But, in the good old US of A, it seems to me that a 200 pound, regular drinker should be able to handle a beer while a 140 pound teetotaler cannot.

Why do we continue to put cuffs on everyone for the failings of a few?

PS. The "bears" part was funny, you have to admit............

[Philadelphia]

Originally Posted by Bree

I stand by my position. We disagree and you haven't convinced me that it's OK to have a couple of drinks and carry a gun. So it doesn;t look like we are going to be on the same wavelength on this particular issue.

No problems. I didn't expect to change anybody's mind. Just explainin' that the law is different in PA and a lot of people look at the issue differently. We don't go shooting up the place like the wild west around here either, even though the gov't lets us have a drink.

Plus your avatar is hot!