Self-Defense 101 - on School Grounds

[Ishpeck]

Originally Posted by Bree

Seems to me that given some number of permit holders, the chance that a permit holder is in any particular classroom is directly proportional to the number of students in the classroom... not the number of rooms.

WHO INVITED MATH INTO THIS DISCUSSION?

[that left handed guy]

Originally Posted by Bree

Seems to me that given some number of permit holders, the chance that a permit holder is in any particular classroom is directly proportional to the number of students in the classroom... not the number of rooms.

My point is I the odds arent really that good that an incident would happen in a room that contained an armed student. Still the odds are better where the students can go armed than where they cant.

[yocan]

Originally Posted by Brush-Wolf-Lady

Those same people probably go see horror films because they like that "scared feeling", "but uhhh thats like not real life huh huh huh, so like sitting next to some dude in class who's like packin heat would be like, uhhh, scary! Even if the dude in class is like uhhh law abiding and all that, well he might like go nutty one day and start shooting everyone like huh huh huh. Gunz r like scary!"

I think its funny that those apposed to firearms are the least likely to be able to legally carry them. These people that don't like them are those that drink and drive and do similar dangerous things. They know they can't be trusted and they are the best people so ban ban ban.

That being said, I think carrying guns makes people wake up, in my HS 27 out of 30 kids freaked out when I said I had seen someone die.... odd that. I also got socially oscracised for saying that a person I almost hit on a road was on cocain. That was my dad's opinion and he did the crazy thing for a while so I trust him (he was in the car with me) My popularity after both things plummetted... by the time I graduated 2 out of the top ten in my class were doing cocain... we'd lost 2 kids out of my class... They are dillusional, **** happens get over it. Never feel ok about it happening, but don't react in fear, react in aggession.

To quote a friend of a friend who ran a group of guys in south Africa (I think he was their secretary, not too impressive but the guys he worked with where) They never lost a man that attacked, they only lost men when they tried to run. They lost 14 guys in the four years he worked for them.

To quote the article with Massab Ayoob (sp I know) When you run away they have to kill you psychologically speaking, when you attack they can switch gears, but after a chase they are incapable of stopping. (The thread/article on full auto weapons last year) So yeah kids running away in the hall is crazy, but you charge you might survive.

[yocan]

Originally Posted by that left handed guy

My point is I the odds arent really that good that an incident would happen in a room that contained an armed student. Still the odds are better where the students can go armed than where they cant.

School shooting should be classified alongside rap as a crime of control.... read my tagline. Reality is they will only attack while they have control they commit suicide before their is an opportunity to challenge them (ie safely before the police may have entered the building) so if they don't know if a gaurd dog is in the room, they are significantly less likely to risk it. Somehow I don't think this will cause bombings to go up... not sure why.... I dunno cause utah doesn't have bombing either.... probably because the **** that happened at columbine to cause it, is not overlooked by permit holders or police just because they have one of the best football teams in the state.

[MordeKyle]

i am not allowed to carry on campus but in all of my criminal justice classes i have 3+ police officers in class getting a better education, ALL of them carry, so i would hope if the **** hit the fan they would be able to take care of me, since my state guberment says i cant protect myself until im 23 and defiantly cant protect myself at school.

[Bree]

Originally Posted by that left handed guy

My point is I the odds arent really that good that an incident would happen in a room that contained an armed student. Still the odds are better where the students can go armed than where they cant.

The more people on campus that can carry the greater the chance that the BG is going to get stopped by an armed citizen before or while doing his bad deeds. Remember that there are many adults in or near the classroom... teachers, extension students, adult education, auditors, maintenance people, graduate teaching assistants etc.

I do not favor granting minor age students the right to carry concealed deadly weapons for obvious reasons. I am a bit shy about trusting such a grave responsibility to anyone who has not reached adulthood.

If I had anything to say about it, I would also require that anyone who can carry on campus be licensed, properly trained, AND have read his/her state's law on use of deadly force. They would have to certify this. I wouldn't even balk at a state-administered test. I am not eager to put anyone in a classroom who even remotely is unstable or unsuited to the responsibility of carrying a gun around young people and/or children.

That said, I believe that there are many adults who can make a huge difference in this kind of campus violence. Many are students and many are auxiliary workers associated with the school. They should be allowed to carry concealed and be held harmless from civil suits if they use their guns in justifiable action to defend students against deadly threats.

Anyways that's where I'm at on it right now.

[robinsre]

Originally Posted by that left handed guy

My point is I the odds arent really that good that an incident would happen in a room that contained an armed student. Still the odds are better where the students can go armed than where they cant.

Yes but it's really not about "stopping" another school shooting. There's the misinformation. It's about protecting onesself in the wake of such an event, or even outside that context (being mugged, robbed, assaulted, or raped while leaving school).

Whether it would lower the incidence of school shootings is irrelevant to the discussion (although in truth I feel it would). The ultimate point (as has been discussed before) is that when someone says "you are not allowed to protect yourself here" what they are actually saying is "we are responsible for your protection here" and they have failed, and will continue to fail, because there is no administration large or organized enough to prevent any even moderate sized school from any potential threat. In the end it's about freedom. One's ability to look-out for onesself and one's family. Not about this "greater good" crap.

- Ryan

[yocan]

Hmm just thought of something... I wonder what the girl that got raped on the fifth floor of the science library here says about it? (9 months ago)

[that left handed guy]

Bree and Robinsre I agree with you both. It's about freedom and evening the odds. I agree that it would be unwise to arm underage students, but like you point out there is the portion of the campus population that is made up of teachers, staff, and seniors who are 21 or older. Among this group there are those who are responsible and intelligent enough to be trusted with permits, of that group there are some who are inclined to get a permit and training. If a school shooting happens, we can only hope there is a person who can stop it present. As has been shown again and again, feel good measures taken by campus administration fail to do anything to make the campus safer.
I also believe that just the public knowing that lawful concealed carry is allowed on campus makes the campus safer, because the criminals know there may be guns present, they just dont know who has them, they think twice.

[robinsre]

I also hate the term "arming students"

It's misleading, and not indicative of what the actual goal is.

It makes it sound like we intend to drive to UC berkley, open up the trunk and start passing out XD-40s.

What it really is is allowing people, who the state has already deemed responsible, intelligent, and proficient enough to carry a handgun nearly EVERYWHERE else, to exercise that same right on a University Campus.