Silencing Christians

[FrankW438]

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

The Bible says "by their fruits you will know them". I personally see none of the fruits of the Spirit in the people from the Westboro Baptist Church, therefore, I have no problem questioning their status as real Christians. That may be just me being "judgmental" again, but calling people f*gs and saying you wished they'd burn in hell tends to shed some clarity on the subject.

The problem is that THEY label themselves as Christians. As did Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. And Jimmy Swaggart. And Jim Jones. And David Koresh.

I think these last two are examples of when free speech and freedom of religion should be curtailed.

-- Frank

[DanTheEldest]

Originally Posted by FrankW438

I think these last two are examples of when free speech and freedom of religion should be curtailed.

-- Frank

Please list some specific ways this could be done without beginning the descent down the proverbial "slippery slope". People followed these nuts of their own free will, in many circumstances against the advice and wishes of their families and extended families. How will the government step in and "fix" it without doing irreparable harm to the rest of the Bill of Rights where their own loved ones couldn't succeed?

As to the original point, I agree with you--there are many people who assume the mantle for purely selfish or even evil reasons, but it's ultimately up to the individual (us) and the "real" church to expose these people for who they are, not the government.

[jdavionic]

Johnny Cash When The Man Comes Around Lyrics

[Delija]

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

. Hate crime legislation truly is an end-run around the Constitution .

Peace,
D.

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by Delija

Peace,
D.

+1 I don't know of a good football analogy for this one, but I'd say it's more accurate to say hate crimes are redundant.

[bakestein]

It's gotta start small. Your neighborhoods and town halls.

[DanTheEldest]

Originally Posted by Delija

Peace,
D.

You honestly don't see it? Hate-crime laws are the first big steps into thoughtcrime right out of Orwell. You're not being punished for what you do, but for (presumeably) what you were thinking at the time, which is by definition unproveable. How is a simple assault somehow "less bad" than an assault where the assailant spews a few racial epithets? You are criminalizing thoughts, attitudes, and speech.

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

You honestly don't see it? Hate-crime laws are the first big steps into thoughtcrime right out of Orwell. You're not being punished for what you do, but for (presumeably) what you were thinking at the time, which is by definition unproveable. How is a simple assault somehow "less bad" than an assault where the assailant spews a few racial epithets? You are criminalizing thoughts, attitudes, and speech.

I understand your point, and I agree that it's no worse than the underlying crime committed (e.g., assault is assault). However, I think "unproveable" is a bit strong. We have many cases where clearly the person was harmed due to their race, sexual orientation, etc. The evidence used in court to convict them of hate crimes is strong. With all that said, I think "hate crimes" is a ridiculous addition to our legal system. Whether you kill someone because they screwed your wife or because you hated that they were a homosexual, what's the difference? Why is one worse than the other? Rhetorical questions to be sure.

[Reeek]

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

You can dismiss it with sarcasm and arrogant contempt as you did in previous posts

I think arrogant contempt is a bit strong

[Krackels]

Originally Posted by FrankW438

I was raised in a strong Christian family, but my belief structure has recently been challenged. I'm not an atheist, and I'm not quite an agnostic either.

When one steps away from one's family and is challenged to learn what he actually believes is where the rubber meets the road.

It's the reason why kids raised in 'good Christian homes' go to college and don't come back Christian because when challenged to evaluate their own beliefs they realize that what their parents taught them isn't necessarily what they believe.

I can respect one that has evaluated himself and doesn't blindly follow.

It is the overzealous Christians that really bug the heck out of me. Like the church in Kansas that protests at soldiers funerals over homosexuality in the military. I definitely wouldn't use that wacko church as an example of the typical church. In fact, I'm sure most Christians would agree that they have VERY LITTLE in common with Christ. Or the kind that go door-to-door, "witnessing" to you whether you want to or not. Hey, I do that. But if you tell me NO, "Go shove it", or whatever; I won't push it. You can't bring anyone into the kingdom kicking and screaming. Or the kind that told me I was going to hell for reading "The DaVinci Code." I read some of it, but I really didn't like it; although, the movie while at times was disturbing it was a little entertaining. I don't really have anything against the book or movie, except for those that take anything out of the book and regard it as truth.

I don't mind someone talking about their beliefs, as long as they aren't forcing them on me or anyone else. That is where their right to free speech ends, in my opinion.

-- Frank

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