CCW holders - cuffed during traffic stop?

[The Tengu]

Originally Posted by AZXD

I'd rather put you (or any LEO) at easy than have us both make a mistake. If I do something questionable, I'd have no problem being cuffed to ease your concerns over the safety of both of us while the situation is checked out. I am not a criminal, so if that's what it takes to ensure we both have a pleasant evening, I don't have a problem with securing the situation.

Well, I wouldn't cuff you because your attitude is not threatening or suspicious. The only time I really separate a CHL holder from their weapon is if they are at the scene of a disturbance, or something threatening is happening.

I've had a CHL holder chase down a robbery suspect before, and I just told him to keep it holstered.

However I've made the scene of a call where a CHL holder was assaulted, and I put his gun in my car because he was rather pissed off and people do stupid **** when they're pissed off.

It really all depends.

[Frenchy]

There are times when we have to put up with authority, no matter how righteous or misplaced. The side of the road is not where you make your stand...It's in the courtroom.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by The Tengu

Well, I wouldn't cuff you because your attitude is not threatening or suspicious. The only time I really separate a CHL holder from their weapon is if they are at the scene of a disturbance, or something threatening is happening.

I've had a CHL holder chase down a robbery suspect before, and I just told him to keep it holstered.

However I've made the scene of a call where a CHL holder was assaulted, and I put his gun in my car because he was rather pissed off and people do stupid **** when they're pissed off.

It really all depends.

I realize that most rational people treat other rational people with equal levels of respect. I really hope I am never in a position where this is a concern, but realize if it occurs, it is most likely a case of mistaken identity.

Also, Frenchy pretty much nailed it. If I truly feel my rights are being violated, the court room is a more sensible place to continue such a discussion.

[Caribou]

Originally Posted by Mad Geek

OK, but aren't you making a general assumption that every time a person is stopped "...it's a TRAFFIC STOP,..".

Well, yes, because that's the point of my post. At a routine traffic stop, they don't cuff everyone. Why should a CPL holder be different? Shouldn't they cuff the non-CPL holders more frequently, because they MIGHT have a gun, but are therefore illegally carrying it?

Originally Posted by Mad Geek

and he's looking for some middle aged white guy, in an old truck, with a gun, his adrenal glands might be spiking his intake.

If my description matches a criminal they are searching for, that's a different situation. I don't think I would mind nearly so much if they cuffed me then, because they would have surrounded my car with their guns drawn, and I would be completely freaked out by the time I could tell them about my CPL!

But I'm talking about:
Officer:"Would you mind stepping out of the car so I can cuff you for your safety?"

Umm...yeah, I mind.

[MGD 45]

That is totally unconstitutional.

No it's not.

You can't restrict someone's freedom of movement (ie: arrest) them unless you have probable cause that a crime has been committed.

Yes we can.

[Philadelphia]

Best stop I ever got stopped at . . . no cuffs needed . . . about two blocks from my house . . .

Officer (looking at me a little funny): where are you going, where are you coming from blah, blah, usual questions one would expect.

Me (looking back at him with the same slightly puzzled look): [answer all his questions]

Officer: hey, wait a minute, I know you. Aren't you [my name].

Me (thinking now I know where I recognize you from). Nod, yup, how's it going . . . blah, blah, small talk blah.

Officer: okay, there was an armed robbery that happened about 10 minutes ago. Perp jumped in a green Ford ranger (what I was driving at the time) and drove off. Go to [where you are going] or you will get stopped every three blocks. . . .

I drove to where I was going. And stayed there most of the day.

[I guess the point of the story being try to get to know the cops in your neighborhood the same way you know your neighbors and you are much better off all around]


For the cuffing, if a cop asked me if I would mind being cuffed for my own safety I'd respond that I'd prefer not to be cuffed.

If he told me I would be cuffed for my own safety, then that's how it goes.

In PA, there's a law about not being permitted to use force to resist an arrest, even if it's an unlawful arrest (or something like that -- to be honest it's not something I've studied arefully as I don't anticipate needing to know about it in detail). In any event, in PA at least, the general policy is do what you're told and sue later if you were abused. I don't necessarily like it, but that seems to be the general consensus of how it works.

[NC Dave]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

There are times when we have to put up with authority, no matter how righteous or misplaced. The side of the road is not where you make your stand...It's in the courtroom.

Once again, we see the wisdom and maturity Frenchy brings to the forum.

Thanks, Frenchy!!

[Micky]

About a month ago I was pulled over on the highway for doing 60 in a 55 mph zone. He did not walk up to my door, but I had the window down and both of my hands on the steering wheel. The trooper (standing beside the back my truck) asked me to step out of the car and move away from the road for our safety.

Once we were in the bar ditch, I handed him my DL and CCL. He asked me where my gun was and I told him that it was in the console of my truck. He gave me a warning and asked me to slow it down a little, be safe, and have a nice day.

The trooper was professional and courteous.

[east_stingray]

Originally Posted by The Tengu

Have I cuffed a CHL holder just because they have a gun? No, I'm generally not worried about them attacking me. I have secured their guns in my car before though, just to keep them separate from their guns when the situation dictates.

Have I ever cuffed someone just for my safety without an arrest? Yeah, I have.

I've never done it to a CHL holder, but I have done it while detaining people. Some of them I let go, some of them I actually arrested. Just because someone is cuffed, it does not mean that they are necessarily under arrest.

Sure, it's kind of rude but like I was telling my partner today: I'd rather hurt someone's feelings then end up dead. I don't do these things to be a dick.

Check me to make sure, but I'm pretty sure there was a Supreme Court case at some point where it was determined that detaining someone in any way (like cuffing them or making them sit in your car) constituted an arrest. I think the case stemmed from the person being questioned without Miranda, and the officer claimed that it wasn't necessary because the person was not "under arrest".

[MGD 45]

Originally Posted by east_stingray

Check me to make sure, but I'm pretty sure there was a Supreme Court case at some point where it was determined that detaining someone in any way (like cuffing them or making them sit in your car) constituted an arrest. I think the case stemmed from the person being questioned without Miranda, and the officer claimed that it wasn't necessary because the person was not "under arrest".

That's a different situation than the original post that deals with Officer's handcuffing for safety purposes.