(PV) A new message: "We can win!"

[Powerman]

Originally Posted by jkswiss

I'm comparing our apathy and unwillingness to question to the Germans who did whatever they were told and bought whatever the authorities told them was true. There was a fake electric shock test conducted back in the day, where as people were told to dial up the shock level on someone by a person of authority. The vast majority of people took those shock levels up to dangerous levels, just because they were told to by someone of authority.

I don't care much for left wing rhetoric than I do for right. I thought you were just joking, but I see you back it up. Look at the division in the country. Look at the division in D.C. look at division within the pentagon in some cases. This is not Nazi Germany. Stop being so dramatic.

[justgotback]

Originally Posted by AZXD

Cool, can you also tell me what the wining lottery ticket numbers are?

You are such a funny guy.....

It's really simple, we pull out AL-Qeada moves in, grows stronger, the Shia try to kill every Sunni in Iraq, Iran takes a foothold, and we lose every positive effect we have created the past 5 years. It isn't rocket science, that is just the way it is...

[justgotback]

Originally Posted by Powerman

I don't care much for left wing rhetoric than I do for right. I thought you were just joking, but I see you back it up. Look at the division in the country. Look at the division in D.C. look at division within the pentagon in some cases. This is not Nazi Germany. Stop being so dramatic.

+1

[jkswiss]

Originally Posted by Powerman

I don't care much for left wing rhetoric than I do for right. I thought you were just joking, but I see you back it up. Look at the division in the country. Look at the division in D.C. look at division within the pentagon in some cases. This is not Nazi Germany. Stop being so dramatic.

I'm dead serious. I go out and about, mingle with lots of various folks, go to college and work. Your off your rockers if you think most Americans waist a few brain cycles concerning themselves about this war or Bush's policies. Most these people don't even know what the fu*& is going on in this country, let alone in the ME.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by justgotback

You are such a funny guy.....

It's really simple, we pull out AL-Qeada moves in, grows stronger, the Shia try to kill every Sunni in Iraq, Iran takes a foothold, and we lose every positive effect we have created the past 5 years. It isn't rocket science, that is just the way it is...

To a degree yes, but no one really wants to talk about alternative ways to win this thing.

We screwed up from the start and I am repeating myself from another thread, but the simple fact is, we should have dropped many leaflets when Saddam's statue fell. Those leaflets should have said "This country is your's now! Do with it what you will! But be advised, if you support terrorism, we will be back and you will not get to read what we drop next!".

OK, so that is the past. In the present we are told that any action other than staying in the middle of things is declaring defeat. Why?

I feel it is because no one wants to take another direction. It would be real simple to pull the troops to the edge and let the Iraqi people and government work out their differences. We could in effect become the referee's as they figure out what they want to do with their country.

As the referee we keep score during each round. If the Iraqi government this administration (U.S.) envisions for the Iraqi people is victorious in their situation, we declare a winner. If they become a safe haven for terrorists, we execute a summary judgment and level the entire area where things went wrong.

I am not talking about the country, just the areas where the bad guys hangout.
EDIT: That doesn't mean ground forces move in, we drop $hit on the area!

No one wants to discuss this approach to fighting this, because we might be looked upon as being ruthless and immoral in our tactics. Guess what? There is a portion of the world who already views us in this fashion, so I don't really think it would make much of a difference.

Playing referee would shift the troops out of immediate danger, and if the think tank folks are correct, the bad guys will follow the troops out of town and the cover of the Iraqi population. If they follow us to the edges they IMO should be much easier targets because no discretion would be needed shoot anyone who crosses the line in the sand.

I do not claim to be any kind of expert on such things, but it seems that a different tactic is needed. For those of us who are not over there with you, it is difficult to comprehend what you deal with everyday. But I do know that most people have friends and family who face death everyday.

I am just thinking of things that might reduce the risk for the good guys.

The argument that a M.E. conflict has been an on and off thing for centuries is a fact I will not argue because I know this t be true. I used to support this war, and still do. What I do not support is the tactics that place troop lives in harms way and appear to treat the troops as pawns on a chess board. I have actually came to loath this war to the point of having no problem pulling the troops, hoping the experts are correct, letting Iran move in, and then leveling the whole damned area. Turn mountains into valleys and make valleys deeper for all I care. If it allows the troops to come home, or go find OBL, hey I'm in favor of it.

This administration set us up in a war that does not appear to have an ending. I am of the belief that if victory is declared for whatever reason in Iraq, the administration will say the GWOT is over and hope no one has the nerve to ask about terrorists in other parts of the world. But that is another chapter in this war.

So to simplify things, if we pulled the troops. We could blame the Iraqi government for its failures and I really would not care because to me the troops have won everything they have been tasked with doing.
If part of the exit strategy involved calling National Geographic and asking them to make a new map because we just obliterated the entire area, I'm not going to loose sleep over it. Simple fact, if that is what it takes to end Iraq and allow people like yourself to come home, I am in favor of it.

[Powerman]

Originally Posted by jkswiss

I'm dead serious. I go out and about, mingle with lots of various folks, go to college and work. Your off your rockers if you think most Americans waist a few brain cycles concerning themselves about this war or Bush's policies. Most these people don't even know what the fu*& is going on in this country, let alone in the ME.

This place is the only place I do talk about politics. I know not much discussion goes on in public. The news is dominated with Iraq. The last election was about Iraq. The next election will be about Iraq. Our long time allies are not as willing to go along with us in Iraq. Bush's approval ratings got down to 30%. Congress's are lower. Everyone knows about the war.

Do you think there was this much debate going on in Nazi Germany before they invaded Poland? Do you think this type of debate was going on when Hitler wanted to conquer Europe? I know we have made plenty of mistakes. I don't care for some of the action by our leadership and I say so.

I say again, this is not Nazi Germany. Your willingness to tie us to them shows your willingness to toss out rational thought and just throw out some inflammatory crap. I can't stand Limbaugh and Huffington for the same reasons.

[jkswiss]

Yes, the war has been a series of mistakes after mistakes after mistakes. With responsibility there should be accountability, something that is sorely lacking. Our worthless, spineless Democratic Congress isn't helping matters any either. I'm very, very frustrated with the state our country has fallen into. Soon, I'll stop caring and just go along for the ride.

I guess no matter who the President is, America will keep on being America.

[Judge]

With your expertise and experience, why don't you show us a war that was run perfectly.

And yes, America will keep on being America. Delta is ready when you are.

Originally Posted by jkswiss

Yes, the war has been a series of mistakes after mistakes after mistakes. With responsibility there should be accountability, something that is sorely lacking. Our worthless, spineless Democratic Congress isn't helping matters any either. I'm very, very frustrated with the state our country has fallen into. Soon, I'll stop caring and just go along for the ride.

I guess no matter who the President is, America will keep on being America.

[beardman2]

Originally Posted by Powerman

I do know that Iraq will end. Viet Nam did not destroy us, nor will Iraq. Communism did not defeat us, and neither will Islamic radicalism. It is really hard to say IRAQ was a preemptive war. The preemption was to remove Saddam and the threat HE posed to the U.S. (We accomplished that in one month in quick order.) We knew after GW1 to leave Saddam in power to balance the region. We wanted to remove Saddam for ten years, but knew that the replacements were not much better.

What Viet Nam did was show us how difficult it is to fight an ideologically conflict with military weapons. How difficult it is to fight a guerrilla war among a civilian population. How difficult it is to fight a limited war with D.C. controlling the action and setting the rules based on politics.

Viet Nam had a chilling effect on us waging more war. Viet Nam was a big reason we have been so reluctant to go into the M.E. up until now. We still have lessons to learn. Iraq will have the same effect IMO. You pretty much nailed it beardman2. If the government tells me that a country is an "eminent threat to the U.S.", then they better have plenty of solid evidence to back that up. Mountains of it for me to ever get behind another preemptive war. If we do declare war, execute with extreme prejudice, and come home.

Here is another idea, cut spending to pay for the war. Devote industry to supply our troops with what they need. You know like armor, body armor, personnel carriers like the Stryker. Maybe do a little homeland security during war too like securing ports, and borders. Call me silly, I'm just throwing out stuff here.

Careful there. Damn moonbat coming up with crazy ideas like that! Fancy that... acting like it really is a war.

Originally Posted by justgotback

You are such a funny guy.....

It's really simple, we pull out AL-Qeada moves in, grows stronger, the Shia try to kill every Sunni in Iraq, Iran takes a foothold, and we lose every positive effect we have created the past 5 years. It isn't rocket science, that is just the way it is...

I'm not convinced. If we are not their then AQ loses the vast majority of their recruiting tools. It won't totally get rid of them thats for sure. But, IMHO it would be a very big blow to them. I'm not saying there won't be a civil war. but that isn't the same.

Originally Posted by jkswiss

I guess no matter who the President is, America will keep on being America.

Isn't that a good thing?

[jkswiss]

Yes, its a good thing. Its my oncoming lack of caring which is a bad thing. I've been following politics fairly closely since I joined the Navy, even more so now that I have more free time now that I'm a civilian.

I have a feeling by the time I'm in my thirties I won't give a damn about who's President, who has the majority, and I'll probably stop voting.