(PV) A new message: "We can win!"

[beardman2]

IMO the whole thing is SNAFU. The surge appears to have made a difference. So now the president is ready to yank troops. I don't know what happened to this guy but he was a great leader for about ten minutes after 9/11. We won the war. kicked the crap out of Iraqi army....again. I think the problem came from mishandling what to do afterwards. They (meaning Washington) screwed it up from the beginning. Now they keep half-assing the solutions. Who pays the price? Our brave folks over there in the sand and their families. Not to mention (a distant third) the taxpayers. Also the iraqis themselves.

Having supported this war from the beginning and realize just how bad our government is at leading our own country, let alone trying to lead a foreign one, it is my opinion preemptive war should be avoided. when a country posses an imminent threat we declare war (like the constitution says) we take that country back to the stone age killing as few civilians as possible. We leave. If you F with us you get to clean up the mess. Have a nice day!

[Powerman]

Originally Posted by justgotback

It is easy to sit in a think tank in the good ol' US, sipping on coffee in a cubicle and tell everyone what is actually going on in Iraq. Keep in mind these are the same folks that were telling everyone about the deadly weapons of mass destruction that Iraq had and that we would find there.

Easy with that one JGB. Those same people are the same ones telling us the doom and gloom stuff if we don't stay in Iraq, and it's those same people building a case against Iran now.

[justgotback]

Originally Posted by Powerman

Easy with that one JGB. Those same people are the same ones telling us the doom and gloom stuff if we don't stay in Iraq, and it's those same people building a case against Iran now.

Oh, I know. But it is sadly the truth. I can tell you there WILL be doom and gloom if we pull everyone out right now. I won't comment on Iran's nuclear capabilities. I will however, say their President is a dangerous man for the entire world.

[Powerman]

Originally Posted by beardman2

Having supported this war from the beginning and realize just how bad our government is at leading our own country, let alone trying to lead a foreign one, it is my opinion preemptive war should be avoided. when a country posses an imminent threat we declare war (like the constitution says) we take that country back to the stone age killing as few civilians as possible. We leave. If you F with us you get to clean up the mess. Have a nice day!

I do know that Iraq will end. Viet Nam did not destroy us, nor will Iraq. Communism did not defeat us, and neither will Islamic radicalism. It is really hard to say IRAQ was a preemptive war. The preemption was to remove Saddam and the threat HE posed to the U.S. (We accomplished that in one month in quick order.) We knew after GW1 to leave Saddam in power to balance the region. We wanted to remove Saddam for ten years, but knew that the replacements were not much better.

What Viet Nam did was show us how difficult it is to fight an ideologically conflict with military weapons. How difficult it is to fight a guerrilla war among a civilian population. How difficult it is to fight a limited war with D.C. controlling the action and setting the rules based on politics.

Viet Nam had a chilling effect on us waging more war. Viet Nam was a big reason we have been so reluctant to go into the M.E. up until now. We still have lessons to learn. Iraq will have the same effect IMO. You pretty much nailed it beardman2. If the government tells me that a country is an "eminent threat to the U.S.", then they better have plenty of solid evidence to back that up. Mountains of it for me to ever get behind another preemptive war. If we do declare war, execute with extreme prejudice, and come home.

Here is another idea, cut spending to pay for the war. Devote industry to supply our troops with what they need. You know like armor, body armor, personnel carriers like the Stryker. Maybe do a little homeland security during war too like securing ports, and borders. Call me silly, I'm just throwing out stuff here.

[Powerman]

Originally Posted by justgotback

Oh, I know. But it is sadly the truth. I can tell you there WILL be doom and gloom if we pull everyone out right now. I won't comment on Iran's nuclear capabilities. I will however, say their President is a dangerous man for the entire world.

I don't believe in THEIR assessment of doom and gloom. It is common sense to see that our failure in Iraq would be disastrous for our nation. Not Bush, and the Republicans, and the Iraqi people, our nation.

Iran is a simply problem to deal with. They are in violation of the Non-Proliferation treaty. They stop their weapons program, or we stop their nuclear program. Real simple. Throw in the GWOT, Iran supplying insurgents, the fact that Iran would not even be pursuing nuclear weapons if they did not know we are weakened by Iraq, and that we have to puff our chests out and show no weakness at this time, and things get much more complicated.

Remove Iraq from the equation and Iran's nuclear weapons aspirations are a simple mission for a few cruise missiles from a ship off the coast.

[eric_t12]

I can tell you there WILL be doom and gloom if we pull everyone out right now.

what is your definition of doom and gloom?

consumed in civil war? it happened in vietnam - and we are pretty friendly to them today.

we had a civil war too - we didn't need england to come break it up and show us which way was right and proper to head in.

of course england didnt' start our civil war either ...

[jkswiss]

More troops, the surge is working..Give us time..

Is this the same administration that publicly ostracized General Shinseki when he said we needed a post war troop level of several hundred thousand soldiers?

This administration has been wrong at every turn and still Congress gives these clowns everything they ask for.

I wonder if one day the people of the world will compare us to the Germans of WWII, wondering why we did nothing to stop the madness and just went along for the ride, because it is our patriotic duty.

[justgotback]

Originally Posted by jkswiss

More troops, the surge is working..Give us time..

Is this the same administration that publicly ostracized General Shinseki when he said we needed a post war troop level of several hundred thousand soldiers?

This administration has been wrong at every turn and still Congress gives these clowns everything they ask for.

I wonder if one day the people of the world will compare us to the Germans of WWII, wondering why we did nothing to stop the madness and just went along for the ride, because it is our patriotic duty.

So are YOU comparing us to Nazi Germany?

[jkswiss]

I'm comparing our apathy and unwillingness to question to the Germans who did whatever they were told and bought whatever the authorities told them was true. There was a fake electric shock test conducted back in the day, where as people were told to dial up the shock level on someone by a person of authority. The vast majority of people took those shock levels up to dangerous levels, just because they were told to by someone of authority.

In my eyes, it seems this administration has had a blank check to do whatever they want, unchecked both by Congress who is asleep at the wheel, and by the apathy of the American people. We haven't held our leaders accountable for anything. I would have thought we would have well been into Bush's impeachment trial by now for all the crap he has done. Yet he's still there with our 2nd to none propaganda machine churning out patriotic fervor and just plain out selling the war to us and we're buying it.

This war wasn't worth it. We've lost our former international standing, more of the world views us as a threat to world peace than China, we're up to our ass in debt funding this war by borrowing and borrowing(mainly from China), and our invincible military is showing its cracks, the strain this war, not even a declared war, is putting on it. It is showing weakness to other countries when we need to look strong.

As I will quote one of the only active duty generals to stand up to the administration: "Beware the 12-division strategy for a 10-division Army. Our soldiers and families bear the risk and the hardship of carrying a mission load that exceeds what force capabilities we can sustain, so we must alleviate risk and hardship by our willingness to resource the mission requirements."

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by justgotback

Oh, I know. But it is sadly the truth. I can tell you there WILL be doom and gloom if we pull everyone out right now. I won't comment on Iran's nuclear capabilities. I will however, say their President is a dangerous man for the entire world.

Cool, can you also tell me what the wining lottery ticket numbers are?