(PV) A new message: "We can win!"

[eric_t12]

We have to ensure global stabilization in order to maintain our way of life here

i thought our 'way of life' was freedom and individual liberties? i dont see how a terrorist can take away my freedom or individual liberties. Governments do that.

You may not like some or all of the ways we have to do this, but it is a sad fact of life.

that sounds like the 'we were just ordered to' excuse. seems like interfering with other countries (to accomplish american goals protecting 'our interests' in whatever region,) is what got us here.

Osama said he was mad that we had troops in saudi arabia after the Gulf War. 9/11 commission report echoes this.

we armed saddam during the Iran-Iraq war, because the Soviets were backing Iran.

CIA tapped manuel noreaga and helped put him into power before he flipped and we had to go in and 'remove the brutal dictator.'

CIA armed and trained Mujahadeen fighters in Afghanistan to fight the soviets. one of them was Osama Bin Laden, who helped financially with the fight in Afghanistan, just like we did. 9/11 commission report echoes this.

If we left the world up to it's own and went into an isolationist state again. How would that be better?

the world can't take care of itself? America doesn't have enough domestic issues of our own? and who is pushing 'isolationism'? if you've ever read the definition here it is from answers.com

i·so·la·tion·ism (ī'sə-lā'shə-nĭz'əm)
n.
A national policy of abstaining from political or economic relations with other countries.

abstaining. i wont find the definition for that word it should be pretty clear.

Free Trade is the opposite of isolationism. trade with all nations. entangling alliances with other nations -

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none."
-- Thomas Jefferson

if you're saying that phrase is 'weak on terror' - i ask you where is a terrorist nation? one who supports terrorists? like i just posted we did with Osama bin laden? you also know we gave nuclear power to iran, right? regardless of the reasons, we supported these people. monetarily and with weapons to fight wars. and it all came back to us.

the versailles treaty (which was one of hitler's biggest beef's with the world) was fashioned after Woodrow Wilson's 14 points, supposedly.

one main point of the 14-Points he designed -
3) national self-determination should allow people of the same nationality to govern themselves and one nationality should not have the power to govern another

the demands placed on Germany were completely against this point. the nations restricted germany so much and caused so much unrest and hate to build up that Hitler's messages of the world assaulting germany were looked at as gospel. the country rallied behind someone who simply and emphatically pandered to their emotions and their knowledge that the world WAS in control of germany. they WERENT free.

the rest is history.

[Frenchy]

They just don't get it, Eric. They believe that it is our sacred duty to protect the world from itself.

[jkswiss]

Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear, kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor, with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.
~ General Douglas MacArthur

Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
~ Nazi Hermann Goering

I hear the term sheeple being thrown around alot in gun forums. Sheeple indeed.

[Dhunter55]

Originally Posted by justgotback

Iraq is a large country. In fact it is bigger than Germany. So to say the country is secure isn't a mis statement. There are trouble pockets, but as a whole the country of Iraq is pretty much secure. The Iraqis are still being trained, and plugged into areas that we have killed and ran out the AQ elements and insurgents. In the past the Iraqis were not able to hold the areas on their own. Now, with the addtion of new police and military from the Iraqis they are beginning to hold these places on their own without our help. It is a growing trend and the more success they have the less likely we will have to remain. It is taking time, but it is going to happen. Look back at how long it took us to rebuild Germany and sort out their political situation. It took nearly ten years to weed out all of the Nazis from the government and police. Once again, Iraq is bigger than Germany, and a very corrupt society. It is taking some time, but I believe the end result will be worth the time and effort.

JGB, if I haven't said it lately, thanks, to you and the rest of our guys and gals for the job your doing over there. Though I don't agree with my President on why we went in, why we're going to continue to stay and what we're really fighting for, in any case, those serving and fighting still have my respect and thanks.

My problem with the whole thing is I hate seeing Americans fighting and dying in wars for countries that care less about making it work than we do and end up hating us years later. We have our own problems at home that we need to resolve before we resolve the rest of the world's problems. I have always believed in, my country first! I might hate the war but I never have and will never, hate the warriors. Just so you know where I'm coming from for what it's worth.

[justgotback]

Originally Posted by Dhunter55

JGB, if I haven't said it lately, thanks, to you and the rest of our guys and gals for the job your doing over there. Though I don't agree with my President on why we went in, why we're going to continue to stay and what we're really fighting for, in any case, those serving and fighting still have my respect and thanks.

My problem with the whole thing is I hate seeing Americans fighting and dying in wars for countries that care less about making it work than we do and end up hating us years later. We have our own problems at home that we need to resolve before we resolve the rest of the world's problems. I have always believed in, my country first! I might hate the war but I never have and will never, hate the warriors. Just so you know where I'm coming from for what it's worth.

I appreciate that hunter. All I say is for you and everyone else to remember that the news on TV isn't always accurate. Everyone keeps saying that the Iraqis care less about making it work. I'm sorry, there are some that don't understand the concept of freedom, but I can assure you there are more in Iraq that do understand the idea. Those folks DO want to make it work. It is just like teaching a baby to walk. Step by step they learn with the occasional fall. The Iraqis Do want freedom, and they want to live in peace. I hate being in Iraq, I have been there enough, but I am not willing to throw out all of the progress we have made and let the infant Government fall into the hands of Al-Qaeda. Just my 2 cents.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by Dhunter55

JGB, if I haven't said it lately, thanks, to you and the rest of our guys and gals for the job your doing over there. Though I don't agree with my President on why we went in, why we're going to continue to stay and what we're really fighting for, in any case, those serving and fighting still have my respect and thanks.

My problem with the whole thing is I hate seeing Americans fighting and dying in wars for countries that care less about making it work than we do and end up hating us years later. We have our own problems at home that we need to resolve before we resolve the rest of the world's problems. I have always believed in, my country first! I might hate the war but I never have and will never, hate the warriors. Just so you know where I'm coming from for what it's worth.

+1

[AZXD]

There is one huge problem with your title!
It should not say We can win it should say We have won & will continue to win.

JGB,
Thanks for what you are doing, but this title is all wrong. Our armed forces personnel have won every battle they have participated in during Iraq's struggle, and I am sure you will agree with this.

The problem with the title is, you need to recognize that Iraq is at a turning point. The Iraqi government is the deciding factor of that countries success. What the coalition forces do is of little consequence in the final outcome of this countries success or failure. The analytical experts are correct in their assessment that the steps required to create success or bring about a failed state are squarely in the hands of the Iraqi people and government.

The coalition forces set goals and attained them during this phase of the battle, and herein lies the key. Iraq is being labeled a war, but it is not. The war was decided to be a war on terror long before we went into Iraq and overthrew the Iraqi government. The war was decided to be a war on terror long before we captured Saddam. Therefore Iraq is but a stepping-stone in the war on terror.

Every engagement with AQ and the Taliban in Afghanistan has been a battle!
I have yet to hear of coalition forces being run out of an area that we decided to go into. So to me, we have won many battles.

The situation in Iraq is nothing more than a series of closely ties battles that are part of a much bigger war.

Think about this long and hard.
If the Iraqi government can get it together, and I really hope they can, then we can claim victory in Iraq.
Actually no we can't!
Our victory will occur when the war is declared to be over. We have made great strides and won many battles, but if Iraq were declared stable, and free tomorrow, it would be because we allowed the Iraqi government and people enough time to get it's #hit together.

I am not being defeatist when I say this, but really, if Iraq became a utopian society tomorrow, terrorism and the people who utilize these tactics would still exist.

Again I ask you to think long and hard on this. If we took the big plunge and nuked the entire region killing everyone in Iraq and Afghanistan, with no one in the world noticing this, and thus no additional feeling of animosity being generated toward the U.S. and other coalition forces, there would still be people willing to use terrorist tactics.

So Iraq truly is just a series of closely spaced battle's in this war. I hope we continue to win our battles. I hope the Iraqi government is able to get it together before more troop casualties occur. I know a few more will make the ultimate sacrifice before Iraq is stable and free.

But the GWOT ................. That will go on long after we leave Iraq.

So again I say We have won & will continue to win.

[fastboy]

Originally Posted by jkswiss

Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear, kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor, with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.
~ General Douglas MacArthur

Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
~ Nazi Hermann Goering

I hear the term sheeple being thrown around alot in gun forums. Sheeple indeed.

Very sobering quotes.

[justgotback]

Originally Posted by AZXD

The coalition forces set goals and attained them during this phase of the battle, and herein lies the key. Iraq is being labeled a war, but it is not.
The situation in Iraq is nothing more than a series of closely ties battles that are part of a much bigger war.

Think about this long and hard.

So again I say We have won & will continue to win.

To say that this is NOT a war is flat out wrong. I assure you when walking down the streets in Baghdad and getting ambushed and fighting for our lives to make it out of there, try and tell me or any of my guys that this is NOT war. It is I assure you.

I will agree that Iraq is a part of a larger war on battling the extremist agenda. It is war nonetheless. And I would be careful in taking to heart the "expert analysts" and what they are saying. It is easy to sit in a think tank in the good ol' US, sipping on coffee in a cubicle and tell everyone what is actually going on in Iraq. Keep in mind these are the same folks that were telling everyone about the deadly weapons of mass destruction that Iraq had and that we would find there.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by justgotback

To say that this is NOT a war is flat out wrong. I assure you when walking down the streets in Baghdad and getting ambushed and fighting for our lives to make it out of there, try and tell me or any of my guys that this is NOT war. It is I assure you.

I will agree that Iraq is a part of a larger war on battling the extremist agenda. It is war nonetheless. And I would be careful in taking to heart the "expert analysts" and what they are saying. It is easy to sit in a think tank in the good ol' US, sipping on coffee in a cubicle and tell everyone what is actually going on in Iraq. Keep in mind these are the same folks that were telling everyone about the deadly weapons of mass destruction that Iraq had and that we would find there.

I will not argue the point. If you want to call it a war, I am OK with that, and I agree the "expert analysts" do not know what you deal with on a daily basis, and that they played a major part in the mis-interpretation.

But I hold firm on the fact that coalition forces win many battles within what I will agree to call a war within a war.

Stay safe!