Guns don't kill people, Philladelphia does. - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

**nikon777** · 07-18-2007, 06:04 AM

Guns don't kill people, Phila. does

By John Lott and Maxim Lott

When Mayor Street spent 15 hours waiting in line for an iPhone recently, the city was not impressed by his love of new technology. Rather, Street had to answer to a passerby asking, "How can you sit here with 200 murders in the city already?" Local politicians say they know the source of the problem: the lack of gun control. Gov. Rendell recently complained the state legislature "has been in the control of the NRA." Street blames the increasing murder rate on "the dangerous proliferation of guns on our city streets." Last Tuesday, two City Council members announced the novel legal tactic of suing the state government to let Philadelphia pass its own gun laws.

The desire "to do something" is understandable, but new gun laws aren't the answer.
In the five years from 2001 to 2006, Philadelphia's murder rate soared more than 36 percent while nationally, the murder rate increased only 2 percent. Indeed, only two other cities in the top 40 experienced a sharper rise in murder rates, according to FBI crime statistics.
But if the cause of more murders in Philadelphia is the lack of yet more gun control, why isn't murder increasing in the rest of Pennsylvania? Pittsburgh saw just a 7 percent increase.
Why haven't murder rates gone up in the rest of the country? Should Phoenix, the city closest in size to Philadelphia, claim that its murder rate remained virtually unchanged for the last five years because of the supposed lack of new gun control? How should Dallas explain its 24 percent drop in murder?

It is not that guns are more likely to be used in Philadelphia murders, either. The proportion of murders involving guns is similar to that of other cities.
It would appear that Philadelphia's problems have something to do with Philadelphia, not the lack of more gun control coming out of Washington or Harrisburg.

Could it be that Philadelphia simply isn't doing such a great job at law enforcement? Since 2001, Philadelphia's arrest rate for murder has fallen by 20 percent, according to the Pennsylvania Uniform Crime Reporting System. Nationally, and among cities with more than 250,000 people, arrest rates have remained virtually unchanged. It isn't so surprising that Philly's murder rate has gone up more than in other cities. After all, criminals are getting away with murder in Philadelphia.

Sure, Philadelphia has slightly fewer police than it had in 2001, but that drop is no different from the small drop that has occurred nationally. What is different is that Philadelphia has experienced a significant drop in arrests per officer relative to the rest of the country.
But it is not just a problem of police. The city is seeing lower conviction rates, and it is not keeping criminals in jail for very long. One could make up for this difference by hiring more police - research has shown the number of police officers to be the main factor in reducing crime. But Philadelphia's problem is how it uses the police it has.

Pointing to more gun-control laws as the solution is simply a way for politicians to pass the blame. Besides, such proposals offer little hope for actually reducing the murder rate. They've all been tried before, from one-gun-a-month limits and reporting stolen guns to the ultimate catchall - letting Philadelphia pass its own gun laws again.

Take the law that seems to be Rendell's favorite: the one-gun-a-month purchase rule. It would reduce the number of gun shows in the state by about 25 percent and shut some stores. But since just a fraction of one percent of criminals with guns get their weapons at gun shows, there would be few benefits from those restrictions. Collectors or those who might legitimately want to get more than one gun at a time are the ones who are inconvenienced. In fact, no published academic study by criminologists or economists shows that such limits reduce violent crime.

The sooner local politicians stop playing politics in the state Capitol and realize that the problem lies in the city's low rate of solving crimes, the sooner the problem will be under control. After all, Philadelphia's current gun laws are similar to those of many others around the country.
What is not the same? In Philadelphia, criminals are less likely to answer for their crimes.

jtkratzer · 07-18-2007, 06:25 AM

First things first, you're probably going to be accused of being anti-leo or accused of bashing cops for this article, just prepare yourself. I'm speaking from personal experience, see the signature.

There was an article posted earlier about him standing in line for the iPhone, but the rest wasn't included, I don't believe.

Could the number of arrests be falling because criminals tend to kill other criminals when it comes to drug turf and what not and the number of criminals is simply decreasing? Probably not, more or less a joke or sarcasm on my part, but my thoughts are as long as these people are killing others like them, that means two things:

1) one less person to put in jail...less tax dollars to spend on that person.

2) it's a small dose of chlorine to the gene pool.

Would it be unconstitutional to create ghettos and wall in all the criminals and thugs and drug dealers into one section of the city and not let them out, or let anyone else in, and we don't have to police the area either. I think eventually, they'll just eliminate themselves. White collar crime is typically much less violent, so, we'll just have to deal with that then...

I can't believe I even jokingly just wrote all that...

**Ed Ely** · 07-18-2007, 06:53 AM

"Follow the drugs, follow the drugs".

Ed

amishclark · 07-18-2007, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

First things first, you're probably going to be accused of being anti-leo or accused of bashing cops for this article, just prepare yourself. I'm speaking from personal experience, see the signature.

someone may even accuse you of making it up!

Deerhunter · 07-18-2007, 07:10 AM

I don't think the article is anti leo, I think it is just holding the police force (Comm Johnson) accountable. Just compare Philadelphia and Miami crime rates. Miami used to have a higher crime rate than Philadelphia now according to http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime....lphia&state=PA Philadelphia murder rate is 3.04 times higher than the national average and Miami's 2.53.

Maybe this has to do with Philadelphia previous Comm Timoney going to Florida. It is just my opinion that the crime rate is Philadelphia is caused primarily by the Comm's and Mayor's inablity to deal with the issues.

It is much easier to blame an inanimate object like a gun, than to look in the mirror.

jtkratzer · 07-18-2007, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

I don't think the article is anti leo, I think it is just holding the police force (Comm Johnson) accountable. Just compare Philadelphia and Miami crime rates. Miami used to have a higher crime rate than Philadelphia now according to http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime....lphia&state=PA Philadelphia murder rate is 3.04 times higher than the national average and Miami's 2.53.

Maybe this has to do with Philadelphia previous Comm Timoney going to Florida. It is just my opinion that the crime rate is Philadelphia is caused primarily by the Comm's and Mayor's inablity to deal with the issues.

It is much easier to blame an inanimate object like a gun, than to look in the mirror.

You wouldn't think so, nor would the rest of the rational folks on the site, but there are a dangerous few who do not tolerate any criticism or suggestion that perhaps something different should be done. These same few are likely to jump down your throat for suggesting any type of improvement whatsoever. Silly us, as non-leos, we're ignorant to the fact that, according to a select few, they're perfect and beyond criticism...and they carry themselves with an attitude similar to the Gestapo of Stasi. I'm just saying be careful.

Ishpeck · 07-18-2007, 07:31 AM

Yeah, Philladelphia hates people.

Krackels · 07-18-2007, 07:33 AM

And people ask me why I don't just move to Philadelphia...

I would say that part of the problem lies with lack of enforcement, arrests, and convictions; some of it with the mentality of Philadelphians (and other similar urban settings); but the majority of the blame lies in Philadelphia's absentee parents that are more like older siblings (if they're even involved) to their children than they are strong parents.

And the parenting thing is mostly the fault of the "great"

sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s when women wanted sex without consequences and to be "free" of the oppressiveness of being thought only as a potential mother and wife.

In the Drexel and UPenn area there have been a rash of robberies and carjackings by a group of thugs. Some have described at least one of the thugs as possibly being only 9 years old.

The problem starts with family and will be solved by the family. What makes Philadelphia's crime problem so much worse than Phoenix? I'd wager that Philadelphia has a higher teen pregnancy, higher birth out of wedlock, and higher absentee and single parent rates.

Deerhunter · 07-18-2007, 07:33 AM

I could understand why people would think this article is anti leo, and may take a defensive stance. I think (and I think alot of leo would agree) that murder rates and crime stats go well beyond the ability of the leo's. The issues are vast and not easily solved and start at the top . Hopefully when Phila gets a new mayor things will change. Address poverty, education, and a hundred more issues and maybe things will move in a positive direction.

brewguy · 07-18-2007, 07:37 AM

Philly is a money sucking nitemare that is bringing down our entire state. I live about an hour and half away. Seems to be your typical city and just liek the gun control laws they propose. Instead of looking at the true problem with would rather throw money at it. Adding hundreds of thousands of people to welfare is not helping. It sure does keep rendell in office though.

07-18-2007, 06:04 AM	#1
nikon777 XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Cleveland, OH. The Danger Zone. Posts: 6,823	Guns don't kill people, Philladelphia does. Guns don't kill people, Phila. does By John Lott and Maxim Lott When Mayor Street spent 15 hours waiting in line for an iPhone recently, the city was not impressed by his love of new technology. Rather, Street had to answer to a passerby asking, "How can you sit here with 200 murders in the city already?" Local politicians say they know the source of the problem: the lack of gun control. Gov. Rendell recently complained the state legislature "has been in the control of the NRA." Street blames the increasing murder rate on "the dangerous proliferation of guns on our city streets." Last Tuesday, two City Council members announced the novel legal tactic of suing the state government to let Philadelphia pass its own gun laws. The desire "to do something" is understandable, but new gun laws aren't the answer. In the five years from 2001 to 2006, Philadelphia's murder rate soared more than 36 percent while nationally, the murder rate increased only 2 percent. Indeed, only two other cities in the top 40 experienced a sharper rise in murder rates, according to FBI crime statistics. But if the cause of more murders in Philadelphia is the lack of yet more gun control, why isn't murder increasing in the rest of Pennsylvania? Pittsburgh saw just a 7 percent increase. Why haven't murder rates gone up in the rest of the country? Should Phoenix, the city closest in size to Philadelphia, claim that its murder rate remained virtually unchanged for the last five years because of the supposed lack of new gun control? How should Dallas explain its 24 percent drop in murder? It is not that guns are more likely to be used in Philadelphia murders, either. The proportion of murders involving guns is similar to that of other cities. It would appear that Philadelphia's problems have something to do with Philadelphia, not the lack of more gun control coming out of Washington or Harrisburg. Could it be that Philadelphia simply isn't doing such a great job at law enforcement? Since 2001, Philadelphia's arrest rate for murder has fallen by 20 percent, according to the Pennsylvania Uniform Crime Reporting System. Nationally, and among cities with more than 250,000 people, arrest rates have remained virtually unchanged. It isn't so surprising that Philly's murder rate has gone up more than in other cities. After all, criminals are getting away with murder in Philadelphia. Sure, Philadelphia has slightly fewer police than it had in 2001, but that drop is no different from the small drop that has occurred nationally. What is different is that Philadelphia has experienced a significant drop in arrests per officer relative to the rest of the country. But it is not just a problem of police. The city is seeing lower conviction rates, and it is not keeping criminals in jail for very long. One could make up for this difference by hiring more police - research has shown the number of police officers to be the main factor in reducing crime. But Philadelphia's problem is how it uses the police it has. Pointing to more gun-control laws as the solution is simply a way for politicians to pass the blame. Besides, such proposals offer little hope for actually reducing the murder rate. They've all been tried before, from one-gun-a-month limits and reporting stolen guns to the ultimate catchall - letting Philadelphia pass its own gun laws again. Take the law that seems to be Rendell's favorite: the one-gun-a-month purchase rule. It would reduce the number of gun shows in the state by about 25 percent and shut some stores. But since just a fraction of one percent of criminals with guns get their weapons at gun shows, there would be few benefits from those restrictions. Collectors or those who might legitimately want to get more than one gun at a time are the ones who are inconvenienced. In fact, no published academic study by criminologists or economists shows that such limits reduce violent crime. The sooner local politicians stop playing politics in the state Capitol and realize that the problem lies in the city's low rate of solving crimes, the sooner the problem will be under control. After all, Philadelphia's current gun laws are similar to those of many others around the country. What is not the same? In Philadelphia, criminals are less likely to answer for their crimes. __________________ Clinging bitterly to guns and religion since 1977.. My Blogspot.

07-18-2007, 07:31 AM	#7
Ishpeck XDTalk 3K Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Earth Posts: 3,780	Yeah, Philladelphia hates people. __________________ Fire. Fire is the solution. Politics is ugly. Fire is pretty. Seems like a good trade to me. http://www.ishpeck.net/

07-18-2007, 07:33 AM	#8
Krackels XDTalk 10K Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Southeastern PA Posts: 18,749 Blog Entries: 5	And people ask me why I don't just move to Philadelphia... I would say that part of the problem lies with lack of enforcement, arrests, and convictions; some of it with the mentality of Philadelphians (and other similar urban settings); but the majority of the blame lies in Philadelphia's absentee parents that are more like older siblings (if they're even involved) to their children than they are strong parents. And the parenting thing is mostly the fault of the "great" sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s when women wanted sex without consequences and to be "free" of the oppressiveness of being thought only as a potential mother and wife. In the Drexel and UPenn area there have been a rash of robberies and carjackings by a group of thugs. Some have described at least one of the thugs as possibly being only 9 years old. The problem starts with family and will be solved by the family. What makes Philadelphia's crime problem so much worse than Phoenix? I'd wager that Philadelphia has a higher teen pregnancy, higher birth out of wedlock, and higher absentee and single parent rates. __________________ "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Benjamin Franklin America's Third Parties --- Duping the Foolish and Idealistic since 1832. PA Roll Call .................... My Blog

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07-18-2007, 06:25 AM	#2
jtkratzer XDTalk 10K Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lancaster Co., PA Posts: 16,291	First things first, you're probably going to be accused of being anti-leo or accused of bashing cops for this article, just prepare yourself. I'm speaking from personal experience, see the signature. There was an article posted earlier about him standing in line for the iPhone, but the rest wasn't included, I don't believe. Could the number of arrests be falling because criminals tend to kill other criminals when it comes to drug turf and what not and the number of criminals is simply decreasing? Probably not, more or less a joke or sarcasm on my part, but my thoughts are as long as these people are killing others like them, that means two things: 1) one less person to put in jail...less tax dollars to spend on that person. 2) it's a small dose of chlorine to the gene pool. Would it be unconstitutional to create ghettos and wall in all the criminals and thugs and drug dealers into one section of the city and not let them out, or let anyone else in, and we don't have to police the area either. I think eventually, they'll just eliminate themselves. White collar crime is typically much less violent, so, we'll just have to deal with that then... I can't believe I even jokingly just wrote all that...

07-18-2007, 06:53 AM	#3
Ed Ely XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: 37.65N -84.76W (Elev. 932 ft) Posts: 7,627 Blog Entries: 1	"Follow the drugs, follow the drugs". Ed

07-18-2007, 07:10 AM	#5
Deerhunter XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Recently moved to Friendswood, TX Posts: 352	I don't think the article is anti leo, I think it is just holding the police force (Comm Johnson) accountable. Just compare Philadelphia and Miami crime rates. Miami used to have a higher crime rate than Philadelphia now according to http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime....lphia&state=PA Philadelphia murder rate is 3.04 times higher than the national average and Miami's 2.53. Maybe this has to do with Philadelphia previous Comm Timoney going to Florida. It is just my opinion that the crime rate is Philadelphia is caused primarily by the Comm's and Mayor's inablity to deal with the issues. It is much easier to blame an inanimate object like a gun, than to look in the mirror.

07-18-2007, 07:37 AM	#10
brewguy XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 284	Philly is a money sucking nitemare that is bringing down our entire state. I live about an hour and half away. Seems to be your typical city and just liek the gun control laws they propose. Instead of looking at the true problem with would rather throw money at it. Adding hundreds of thousands of people to welfare is not helping. It sure does keep rendell in office though.