(PV) Immigration and Gun Control.

[leftywa]

Originally Posted by AZXD

You argued earlier for handing out green cards to those who come here legally and pursue higher education. But you want them to stay under the premise that they will fill a job that illegals are piling across the border to fill. Details please, I am all ears.

1) I think that it is silly for us to send home foreigners who come here and complete a valuable advanced degree. There they compete with us. I say encourage them to stay and create jobs here.

2) I do not think the higher education should be the only way. If we are going to dry up the job demand which is pulling in illegals, we need to implement a system that moves quickly enough to allow people to accept job offers here legally and to come. If the hotels and restaurants legitimately cannot find americans to fill the bottom rung jobs, then let them higher form south of the border. recruiting firms would quickly fill the breach of finding legal workers south of the border. There are plenty of hard working people down there who would abide by an agreement to learn english, follow the law, register an address (insert your requirement here) to have safe passage to the US and a job waiting. If there were an easy way to do this, US businesses would much prefer to higher legal cheap labor than illegal cheap labor.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by leftywa

1) I think that it is silly for us to send home foreigners who come here and complete a valuable advanced degree. There they compete with us. I say encourage them to stay and create jobs here.

2) I do not think the higher education should be the only way. If we are going to dry up the job demand which is pulling in illegals, we need to implement a system that moves quickly enough to allow people to accept job offers here legally and to come. If the hotels and restaurants legitimately cannot find americans to fill the bottom rung jobs, then let them higher form south of the border. recruiting firms would quickly fill the breach of finding legal workers south of the border. There are plenty of hard working people down there who would abide by an agreement to learn english, follow the law, register an address (insert your requirement here) to have safe passage to the US and a job waiting. If there were an easy way to do this, US businesses would much prefer to higher legal cheap labor than illegal cheap labor.

Um, right!

So we, as you say dry up the job demand which is pulling in illegals. Your gonna have to explain this one. How about we, by enforcing current laws, free up the jobs that are being taken by those who are here illegally. This might have the effect of getting a few people back on their feet and allow them to quit sleeping under bridges and on the streets. What do ya think, does that sound like a good idea?

But hey, let's throw out the idea that we have people illegally in this country for a minute. Let's say they are all here legally. The price of everything goes up as we have to pay a fair wage. Great! Now we have an even greater burden upon society as the price of even basic goods is raised to offset the profit margin that the business owner will continue to strive for. So you think this is acceptable and you can afford it. Tell this to the family that lives in their car. Tell this to the family who, is as qualified as the next legal individual, but can't afford to even look for work.

Face it, there is a problem here. This is true. But the idea of fixing the issue by importing more labor, educated or not, does not fix the problem. The problem is one of a society that is outgrowing it's economic stability. The country does not easily support it's population, the corporate mentality does not care to support society, as they pursue the lust of profit. So we bring more people into a situation that provides no support and is on a downward spiral. Yep, I get it

Now, what was that about immigration and the imbalance that has been created. What was that about the people who come here legally yet do not leave. What was that about supporting the world when we cannot take care of our own citizens. What was that about you being replaced by someone who will work longer and for less just to be here. What was that you were saying when you compared immigration & gun control.

What is it that you were saying about fixing things for the people of this country by placing an imported band-aid upon the nations people. What did you say?

Forget factoring the impact of illegal immigration into this, unless you want to admit that the population that creates this situation centers on an excess of labor as it relates to the current job market. Sure some potential workers are lazy, but we created this by providing support programs that cater to the needs of the displaced worker first.

[leftywa]

Originally Posted by AZXD

Um, right!

But hey, let's throw out the idea that we have people illegally in this country for a minute. Let's say they are all here legally. The price of everything goes up as we have to pay a fair wage.

Are you saying that Immigration would lead to inflation? Not sure that I follow.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by leftywa

Are you saying that Immigration would lead to inflation? Not sure that I follow.

I am saying that the current legal immigration numbers are sufficient. To increase them without restraint, as you suggest, will have the effect of over-populating an already over-populated workforce.

I am also saying that I feel you proposed this discussion as a method to gain agreement by diverting attention away from illegal immigration, and you still haven't convinced me that your argument is anything like the argument the gun grabbers use as they attempt to initiate levels of gun control.

[miller746]

What would be wrong with all the illegals in the US going home and fixing their own government and country instead of living off our country and then telling us how much better Mexico is.

[leftywa]

Originally Posted by AZXD

I am saying that the current legal immigration numbers are sufficient. To increase them without restraint, as you suggest, will have the effect of over-populating an already over-populated workforce.

On what do you base the over-populated work force. We have low unemployment. If we had an over-populated work force we would have emigration not immigration.

I am also saying that I feel you proposed this discussion as a method to gain agreement by diverting attention away from illegal immigration, and you still haven't convinced me that your argument is anything like the argument the gun grabbers use as they attempt to initiate levels of gun control.

I am not saying my argument is like the gun grabber, I am saying to counter argument is like the gun grabbers. I am not even sure what you mean by "initiate levels of gun control" so I cannot respond to that.

Finally, reread what I said. I was not making an economic case, though I could. I am an economics major and and an MBA with a concentration in finance. I was making a legal, assimilation argument.

Just as gun laws push guns underground and into the wrong hands, and drinking laws push underage drinking underground and into unsupervised behavior, immigration restrictions push immigration underground leaving us without any ability to supervise who comes and or how they adjust to American society.

We have been trying immigration restrictions for quite a while and I submit that it has not worked.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by miller746

What would be wrong with all the illegals in the US going home and fixing their own government and country instead of living off our country and then telling us how much better Mexico is.

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Or any other country for that matter!
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[eagpag@suddenlink.net]

The American Indians didn't have a very good immigration plan.
Secure the borders NOW.
Then begin the round-up and deport all of the free-loaders and gangs.
Simple but very complicated.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by leftywa

Finally, reread what I said. I was not making an economic case, though I could. I am an economics major and and an MBA with a concentration in finance. I was making a legal, assimilation argument.

Just as gun laws push guns underground and into the wrong hands, and drinking laws push underage drinking underground and into unsupervised behavior, immigration restrictions push immigration underground leaving us without any ability to supervise who comes and or how they adjust to American society.

We have been trying immigration restrictions for quite a while and I submit that it has not worked.

Ya know what, you are really grasping at straws now. So back the truck up and tell me how "gun laws push guns underground and into the wrong hands".

Start there and then get into the economic case of a less restrictive immigration policy and how this will benefit the American Citizen.

Oh, and don't give me this one liner stuff.
I want details.
State your case.
Your legal, assimilation argument is something I want to hear about.
You threw out your degree, so prove you are learning something.

After this, we will come back to the other issues, if you like, but to me, they are all related issues that should be addressed as a group

[leftywa]

Not sure how to go about it. This is asking for three pretty big arguments that would take up too much space.

For the gun laws portion, I suggest the NRA-ILA web site and books by John Lott.

Here is a good link on the economic argument.

http://www.freetrade.org/node/661