Armed Robber Killed by permit holder - Page 4 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

cobra · 10-11-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neomet

I'm agreeing with KOL here with the limited info available. Do me a favor, if someone has a gun stuffed in my back, do not draw on him unless he is stupid enough to let you out of his line of his vision and you can be 100% certain that you are going to put the first round directly in his medula oblongata. I personally would probably be pissed off if I was left paralyzed, ****ting into a bag due a bullet to the spinal cord because my buddy thought he could outdraw a BG who already has a gun stuffed in my back with his finger on the trigger. Ya gotta realize when drawing your weapon is a good idea vs a bad idea. One answer does not fit all situations.

Nice end of the story, but I'm not so sure I would have drawn on him when it sounds like he did. Its possible they are just very, very lucky. I wasn't there so I'm not sure.

agreed, its not like the movies, tring to out draw somebody who already has there gun pulled and finger on the trigger is almost hopless, but then again who knows the real story...........

emschris · 10-11-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

oklawall: On another forum there was a study done with a trained LEO with gun out and at low ready, the BG could pull his weapon and shoot the LEO before the LEO could act. The main point of it was that the mind could not catch up with the actions of the other person with all that is going on in the mind.

I've seen a video somewhere on this type of reaction training. And the results were as stated in the begining, with a trained officer responding to the to the BG drawing his weapon and shooting the officer. The key was to respond to certain movewments of the BG as indications to shoot, not trying to take in the totality of the situation first then respond. It would appear the latter is a more sensible approach but it could clearly wasn't working.

Quote:

Boma: What kind of martial arts are you in?

Primarily Ed Parker's Kenpo, but have studied other styles.

Neomet · 10-11-2006, 07:38 PM

I really hope others aren't taking my comments as Monday morning QBing. Reason number one is that I have no idea what actually happened. Reason number two is I think doing after-action reviews can help us be prepared. I don't want to just trust what my instinctual reaction will be, I want to train my butt off both physically and mentally so I can do the best thing possible.

From a purely statistical point of view, the vast majority of armed robbers just want to take your money, your watch and then crawl back under whatever rock they came out from. Certainly not all, and if I have the opportunity to assist them in leaving their chosen profession to pursue other career choices in the bowels of hell without endangering my family consider it done. Personally though, my quickest time from holster to shot on target is almost a full two seconds. (I know, I'm pretty slow

) In the same amount of time I can put 8 shots in the A zone at seven yards if my gun is already drawn. I would imagine at point blank I could empty the magazine. As I run these givens though my head I do not see a good outcome for Ms. Neomet. Yeah, I've got a decent chance of turning the perps head into a fine red mist but I don't think this will console me as I replay those events for the rest of my life. My goal is to preserve my family's life, period. If that means getting to wax the bad guy and feel good fine. If it means getting the BG mad enough at me that he beats the crap out of me but stops molesting the missus that doesn't feel quite as good but it I have still accomplished my stated task.

Sorry this has run on so long, just kinda personal.

BTW KOL, I agree again about training. In MO your firearms proficiency test is being able to put 7 rounds anywhere in a full sized silhouette at 7 yards slowfire.

**jmiahhenry** · 10-12-2006, 09:57 PM

So would most of you have done somthing different?

I do not think I would have.

The Knight Of Light · 10-12-2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmiahhenry

So would most of you have done somthing different?

I do not think I would have.

I was really trying to get people to realize the guy had to make a decision we might have to make one day. Are we really prepared to see what could have gone wrong or that he was just cool cause he killed the badguy.

Neomet · 10-12-2006, 10:14 PM

Well said KOL. I'm in the same camp. Just want people to think. My ongoing caveat has been "I don't know what actually happened". I will state that I do not think that pulling and blazing away is the right answer in every situation. It just ain't. AS far as this situation.....got me, but its a good chance to think things out and talk about possiblities.

retired · 10-13-2006, 01:03 AM

Based on my experience and talking to incarcerated criminals over a period of years, I would have done and will do the same thing the guy did when he shot the bg. I only hope I have the same results.

I don't know how accurate those statistics were that were quoted, but I for one would not rely on them to save my wife's or my life. As far as I'm concerned, most robbers don't want to leave a witness and if I or a loved is going to probably die anyway, I will do my best to make sure the bg does instead of me.

I was trained to never put my gun down and by the same token to never believe the bad guy will let you go unharmed. The LAPD officer in Wambaugh's "The Onion Field," forgot that and his partner died.

The difference in the visciousness of the criminal of the mid to late 70s is remarkably different than what is now the case. When gangbangers would do their drivebyes (Yes, I know there was no mention of the bg being a gangbanger; this is only to make a point) when I first began my career, they generally did so when the "victim" was by himself or with other gangbangers. As everyone is aware, they have for some time done their shooting whether or not the banger is holding their newborn, with 2 kids at their side and their 90yr. old grandmother next to them.

The same thing occurred in the jail. They did their contract kills when the deputy wasn't around so he wouldn't be hurt. When I went back in the late 90s, they didn't care if a dep. got killed while they were attacking the contractee. As a matter of fact, the last year I was there, 5 of us supervisors had hits on them, me included. It would give them "juice" when they went to state prison.

Bottom line; do what you will, but if you want to believe they are not going to hurt you, but just leave; good luck with that.

I'm not putting anyone down and please don't take it that way; I'm just trying to give you a dose of reality when dealing with those dirtbags.

spyderman2k4 · 10-13-2006, 10:39 AM

This was an interesting read, especially considering we don't know the details. My first thought was "I'm glad she didn't end up getting shot because he pulled a gun." But, considering all ended well, I'm assuming he made the right decisions and didn't just rely on luck. I don't know about you guys, but between me and my friends (other gun advocates who are very pro-self-defense), we generally think about as many situations as we can, and what we would do in those situations. We have the conversations with each other to see what we would do. Granted, things will probably be much different if it were to actually go down, but I would have rather at least thought about it than not. Maybe the BG put a gun to her back at first, then let them turn to give him the money... maybe as she opened her purse the BG lowered his gun, and the guy took advantage of it? I don't know? Either way, I'll assume (and hope) he waited for the right opportunity, and one way or another, he did take advantage of it. I think it's great that we can discuss this stuff... it doesn't hurt to think about the different scenarios

Neomet · 10-13-2006, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retired

I don't know how accurate those statistics were that were quoted, .

Certainly a fair question. Here are the FBI statistics for where I live.

Crime Type	2004 Total	Per 100,000 People	National per 100,000 People
Overall St. Louis Crime Index	45701	13636.3	3982.6

St. Louis Violent Crimes	6897	2057.9	465.5
St. Louis Murders	113	33.7	5.5
St. Louis Rapes	111	33.1	32.2
St. Louis Robberies	2632	785.3	136.7

I would presume that out of the 113 murdered souls, a certain percentage were gangbangers expressing philisophical differences as well as other circumstances besides robbery. Even if I were to assume that every murder was the result of a robbery that would still mean that slightly more than 5% were murdered. Granted that would not include folks who took a bullet and lived, but still a pretty low percentage.

I'd still shoot 'em dead given the chance, but it has to be a tactically good choice. Sounds like this guy made the good move.

retired · 10-13-2006, 11:59 PM

As far as gangbangers killing gangbangers; no victims involved.

Thanks for providing the stats, but even with those, I don't want to be one of those in the murdered column as you wouldn't. I would hope for the best tactical situation; but even with that lacking, based on what I already posted, I will not ever believe the bad guy is going to let me escape with my life.

I will think and act under the belief that I or a loved one will NOT make it out of that situation unless I attempt to shoot the bg before he shoots us. After 27yrs. of contact with dirtbags, I cannot do it any other way.

One additional negative in my case is that when I retired, I was issued a retirement badge in a flat wallet case that also contains my picture i.d. and ccw on the reverse. Once a bg obtains my wallet, that will be the end of me and probably anyone with me.

There is a young widow today who lost her husband about a decade ago due to some robbers in that situation. She and he were both fairly new deputies on my former dept. They held up a beauty salon in the Magic Mt. area. They didn't shoot her because she was female; he they executed after having him lay on the floor. Unfortunately, he had left his gun at home so he made a mistake from the get go since he was carrying his i.d. and no gun. I'm not judging him, just giving my professional opinion.

I realize that my situation is unique; most members here are not in that catagory. Nevertheless, I will stand by my statements. This is not meant to be argumentative, merely my opinion.

10-11-2006, 07:38 PM	#33
Neomet XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Made it to Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,402	I really hope others aren't taking my comments as Monday morning QBing. Reason number one is that I have no idea what actually happened. Reason number two is I think doing after-action reviews can help us be prepared. I don't want to just trust what my instinctual reaction will be, I want to train my butt off both physically and mentally so I can do the best thing possible. From a purely statistical point of view, the vast majority of armed robbers just want to take your money, your watch and then crawl back under whatever rock they came out from. Certainly not all, and if I have the opportunity to assist them in leaving their chosen profession to pursue other career choices in the bowels of hell without endangering my family consider it done. Personally though, my quickest time from holster to shot on target is almost a full two seconds. (I know, I'm pretty slow ) In the same amount of time I can put 8 shots in the A zone at seven yards if my gun is already drawn. I would imagine at point blank I could empty the magazine. As I run these givens though my head I do not see a good outcome for Ms. Neomet. Yeah, I've got a decent chance of turning the perps head into a fine red mist but I don't think this will console me as I replay those events for the rest of my life. My goal is to preserve my family's life, period. If that means getting to wax the bad guy and feel good fine. If it means getting the BG mad enough at me that he beats the crap out of me but stops molesting the missus that doesn't feel quite as good but it I have still accomplished my stated task. Sorry this has run on so long, just kinda personal. BTW KOL, I agree again about training. In MO your firearms proficiency test is being able to put 7 rounds anywhere in a full sized silhouette at 7 yards slowfire. __________________ Who said that? Who the freak said that? Who's the slimy little communist $hit, twinkle-toed rocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant? Nobody, huh? The fairy freaking godmother said it. Out-freaking-standing. I will PT you all until you freaking die! Last edited by Neomet; 10-11-2006 at 08:00 PM.

10-12-2006, 09:57 PM	#34
jmiahhenry XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Central Cali Posts: 333	So would most of you have done somthing different? I do not think I would have. __________________ Jeremiah SA-XD 40 two tone, service Shoot to kill not to harm!

10-12-2006, 10:14 PM	#36
Neomet XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Made it to Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,402	Well said KOL. I'm in the same camp. Just want people to think. My ongoing caveat has been "I don't know what actually happened". I will state that I do not think that pulling and blazing away is the right answer in every situation. It just ain't. AS far as this situation.....got me, but its a good chance to think things out and talk about possiblities. __________________ Who said that? Who the freak said that? Who's the slimy little communist $hit, twinkle-toed rocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant? Nobody, huh? The fairy freaking godmother said it. Out-freaking-standing. I will PT you all until you freaking die!

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10-13-2006, 01:03 AM	#37
retired XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 5,532	Based on my experience and talking to incarcerated criminals over a period of years, I would have done and will do the same thing the guy did when he shot the bg. I only hope I have the same results. I don't know how accurate those statistics were that were quoted, but I for one would not rely on them to save my wife's or my life. As far as I'm concerned, most robbers don't want to leave a witness and if I or a loved is going to probably die anyway, I will do my best to make sure the bg does instead of me. I was trained to never put my gun down and by the same token to never believe the bad guy will let you go unharmed. The LAPD officer in Wambaugh's "The Onion Field," forgot that and his partner died. The difference in the visciousness of the criminal of the mid to late 70s is remarkably different than what is now the case. When gangbangers would do their drivebyes (Yes, I know there was no mention of the bg being a gangbanger; this is only to make a point) when I first began my career, they generally did so when the "victim" was by himself or with other gangbangers. As everyone is aware, they have for some time done their shooting whether or not the banger is holding their newborn, with 2 kids at their side and their 90yr. old grandmother next to them. The same thing occurred in the jail. They did their contract kills when the deputy wasn't around so he wouldn't be hurt. When I went back in the late 90s, they didn't care if a dep. got killed while they were attacking the contractee. As a matter of fact, the last year I was there, 5 of us supervisors had hits on them, me included. It would give them "juice" when they went to state prison. Bottom line; do what you will, but if you want to believe they are not going to hurt you, but just leave; good luck with that. I'm not putting anyone down and please don't take it that way; I'm just trying to give you a dose of reality when dealing with those dirtbags.

10-13-2006, 10:39 AM	#38
spyderman2k4 XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,052	This was an interesting read, especially considering we don't know the details. My first thought was "I'm glad she didn't end up getting shot because he pulled a gun." But, considering all ended well, I'm assuming he made the right decisions and didn't just rely on luck. I don't know about you guys, but between me and my friends (other gun advocates who are very pro-self-defense), we generally think about as many situations as we can, and what we would do in those situations. We have the conversations with each other to see what we would do. Granted, things will probably be much different if it were to actually go down, but I would have rather at least thought about it than not. Maybe the BG put a gun to her back at first, then let them turn to give him the money... maybe as she opened her purse the BG lowered his gun, and the guy took advantage of it? I don't know? Either way, I'll assume (and hope) he waited for the right opportunity, and one way or another, he did take advantage of it. I think it's great that we can discuss this stuff... it doesn't hurt to think about the different scenarios

10-13-2006, 11:59 PM	#40
retired XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 5,532	As far as gangbangers killing gangbangers; no victims involved. Thanks for providing the stats, but even with those, I don't want to be one of those in the murdered column as you wouldn't. I would hope for the best tactical situation; but even with that lacking, based on what I already posted, I will not ever believe the bad guy is going to let me escape with my life. I will think and act under the belief that I or a loved one will NOT make it out of that situation unless I attempt to shoot the bg before he shoots us. After 27yrs. of contact with dirtbags, I cannot do it any other way. One additional negative in my case is that when I retired, I was issued a retirement badge in a flat wallet case that also contains my picture i.d. and ccw on the reverse. Once a bg obtains my wallet, that will be the end of me and probably anyone with me. There is a young widow today who lost her husband about a decade ago due to some robbers in that situation. She and he were both fairly new deputies on my former dept. They held up a beauty salon in the Magic Mt. area. They didn't shoot her because she was female; he they executed after having him lay on the floor. Unfortunately, he had left his gun at home so he made a mistake from the get go since he was carrying his i.d. and no gun. I'm not judging him, just giving my professional opinion. I realize that my situation is unique; most members here are not in that catagory. Nevertheless, I will stand by my statements. This is not meant to be argumentative, merely my opinion.