A.T.F. Bastards!

[LUVMYSIGP225]

Anyone else out there seeing a large influx of reputable gun dealers being shut down by the A.T.F. for clerical errors and miscellaneous bull$hit? I live in Northern, Ohio, and have seen close to ten dealers closed down recently due to simple clerical errors on the A.T.F. purchase forms. Things like the state being abbreviated OH instead of Ohio. Anyone seeing their local dealers being stomped out. This is of grave concern in Northeast, Ohio right now. We are losing dealers left and right. I know that the House of Reps just passed the A.T.F. reform bill, however, this bill is not passed the whole congress yet, and in the meantime, dealers are dropping like flies with very little recourse.

My local dealer is one of the most reputable, oldest dealers that you have ever seen. Sort of a family oriented place where people like to hang around and drink coffee and yack about guns. A lot of local L.E.O. hang out in uniform and off-duty talking about guns and buying their ammo and holsters and duty accessories. A few Feds from other agencies even spend a lot of time there. I have seen this dealer turn away numerous potential sales because he didn't like how someone was acting, or appeared intoxicated or emotionally distressed. THESE ARE GOOD GUYS!

A.T.F. agents(auditors) walk in and shut him down for really petty infractions.

Any feedback from other areas of the country?

[beardman2]

I'm not going to get fan mail for this but if they can not comply with the laws do they deserve to stay in business? clarical errors can cover a lot of stuff.

Granted I don't know the details of these cases.

further more with all the lawsuites today wouldn't you want to dot all your I's and cross your T's when dealing with stuff like this?

[jeff221]

I was told in another thread that Illegal = Illegal.. Mass Muder is the same as J-Walking (there is no "More Illegal", or so I'm told). Thus, if you write "OH" instead of "OHIO" then you've broken the law.. Shut'em'down!

[BillSXT2002]

I'm not sure exactly where in Ohio you are from, but I know of a couple of shops that have been shut down lately. It's really sad. I've met a couple of the Cleveland ATF guys. One all but said that he doesn't think guns should be allowed. The other doesn't mind them for hunting and responsible use. That one is close to retirement age. The truth is, the younger generation of the ATF seems to be ignorant about guns, afraid of guns, and arrogant enough to think they are smarter than and better than we, the "redneck gun nuts."

If you think it's bad now, wait another couple of years until some of the guys on the top retire. Beleive it or not, those guys are the ones that seem to be reigning in the ATF right now. I'm not optomisitc about the new guys that will be taking their place someday.

[hacker15]

Latest symptom of a national trend that started several years ago. The feeling among the antigun crowd was,

"Because of the 2nd Amendement, we can't totally stop the sale of firearms. We can, however so drive the firearms dealers out of business by rigedly enforceing the BATF's Byzantine rules and regulations. If there's nowhere for the purchaser to buy guns, we've effectively stopped the sale of firearms - and done it within the bounds of Constitution. If this doesn't work, let's legislate the sale of ammunition out of existance - there's nothing in the Constuition to ban that legal ruse. They can have all the guns they want - they just can't get anything to shoot in them."

Think this is a fable? Check out the NRA's site on the number of dealers in the country before Clinton/Reno. Check out the numbers today.

[roberto-232]

Two words that DO NOT go together.

LIBERAL COPS

[LUVMYSIGP225]

Originally Posted by BillSXT2002

It's really sad. I've met a couple of the Cleveland ATF guys. One all but said that he doesn't think guns should be allowed. The other doesn't mind them for hunting and responsible use.

This comment is scary, but true. A very good friend of mine is a Federal Special Agent for another unnamed agency in Cleveland. He and I talk daily, and shoot together and have a few beers afterward on a weekly basis. He is a gun nut, just like you and I. However, I frequently joke with him about being a "fed", and that he is coming to take my guns. The whole thing is just a joke. I know him well, and he is into AR's, Ak's, Cetmes, FN's, etc. He is definitely no "gun grabber" cop.

We were talking the other day, and he said that cops that have the attitude that they will be able to carry and own a firearm for life, should think twice. Cops need to defend their right to own a firearm as much as the next guy. Reason being, and this is directly from his mouth:

"We work in a field where our job can be gone tomorrow. One wrong decision while using force to apprehend a suspect, one wrong decision about having a drink and driving, or someone deciding that your agency is no longer necessary, and any officer could be out of a job tomorrow." And they will never have the right to carry again!!! " Pretty strong statement made by an LEO. And at the federal level, no less.

My buddy attends FLETC(Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) on a several time a year basis, He says the ATF guys are the biggest idiots. They don't hire gun lovers to work for the ATF. I hope this new bill guts the ATF.

[LUVMYSIGP225]

Originally Posted by beardman2

further more with all the lawsuites today wouldn't you want to dot all your I's and cross your T's when dealing with stuff like this?

Gee, I hope I never make a mistake while working. I would hate to lose my job for a few clerical mistakes. And, by the way, I hope the investigating agent doesn't make any mistakes on his paperwork. After all, he is dealing with people's livelihoods when he closes these guys down. I hope the attornies defending at least one of these cases are looking thoroughly for mis-spells in the case paperwork.

[VAXDGUY]

Originally Posted by LUVMYSIGP225

Anyone else out there seeing a large influx of reputable gun dealers being shut down by the A.T.F. for clerical errors and miscellaneous bull$hit? I live in Northern, Ohio, and have seen close to ten dealers closed down recently due to simple clerical errors on the A.T.F. purchase forms. Things like the state being abbreviated OH instead of Ohio. Anyone seeing their local dealers being stomped out. This is of grave concern in Northeast, Ohio right now. We are losing dealers left and right. I know that the House of Reps just passed the A.T.F. reform bill, however, this bill is not passed the whole congress yet, and in the meantime, dealers are dropping like flies with very little recourse.

My local dealer is one of the most reputable, oldest dealers that you have ever seen. Sort of a family oriented place where people like to hang around and drink coffee and yack about guns. A lot of local L.E.O. hang out in uniform and off-duty talking about guns and buying their ammo and holsters and duty accessories. A few Feds from other agencies even spend a lot of time there. I have seen this dealer turn away numerous potential sales because he didn't like how someone was acting, or appeared intoxicated or emotionally distressed. THESE ARE GOOD GUYS!

A.T.F. agents(auditors) walk in and shut him down for really petty infractions.

Any feedback from other areas of the country?

How many dealers have claimed "clerical errors" when ATF has pointed out the discrepancies when the guns have gone out the back door?

No sympathy from this corner....

[LUVMYSIGP225]

I agree that basement dealers should not exist. But a place that that has had a storefront, phone pages advertisement for twenty years? You gonna keep your position until all of the dealers are gone and you cannot pick up a box of ammo? By the way, two of these dealers were local gun ranges. The ranges cannot sustain the overhead cost of running themselves. They need the gun sales. Great, I just lost two places to shoot.