A.T.F. Bastards! - Page 6 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

Brad Johnson · 10-13-2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

They get a guy that goes into a store and lets say buys 5 glock 26s. and does it every day. Almost a month passes when the constant background checks at the PA state police throws up a red flag on this guy, and the ATF is brought in.

So it's become a crime to buy a certain number of guns in a predetermined period of time? What if the guy just likes Glocks and has a boatload of money. If the dealer has the person fill out the proper paperwork and the person passes the fed "sniff test" then the dealer has complied with the regs. The dealer's liability (as it pertains to the ATF) extends no further than that. If the buyer is doing something patently illegal and isn't being caught then, well... maybe the ATF should stop harassing law-abiding gun owners and dealers and start actually doing their job. Relying on the dealer to be an unpaid informant is the administrative equivalent of passing the buck. It's yet another side-stepping bureaucratic excuse for the ineffectiveness of an agency that prides itself on the proscecution of soft targets - the "paperwork felons" - and only goes after hard targets when it becomes politically expedient.

Back to your assertion. What you are saying is that you are comfortable with the feds hauling in someone who buys in an "unusual way and in unusual amounts". So who's to say what's "unusual"? You? Me? The dealer? The feds? You are advocating, in a roundabout way, intentionally giving up a right in exchange for a sense of security.

Seems like I've seen a quote about that somewhere....

Brad

Neoprofin · 10-13-2006, 09:14 PM

He's intentially saying don't be so naive.

If someone buys 100 guns in a month, or even 10 guns in a month, for multiple months or even one, what are the odds that he's a hobbyist versus a criminal? Is this something that the ATF should look into, definitely. If it's just a guy who loves guns, great. If it isn't I'm glad I wasted my tiny percentage of tax money, as well as yours, to check into that.

Furthermore, paperwork errors are not hard to prevent, nor are the kind of "invetory discrepencies" that allow countless guns into improper hands. Last time I bought a rifle I was only half listening when the guy said to make sure not to abbreiviate anything, and he went back through all of my paperwork and made me fix absolutely everything. He still has a job and the gunstore is still in business. If an agency has the power to shut you down with absolutely no recourse maybe, just maybe, you should take their paperwork related regulations seriously.

**Glenn** · 10-14-2006, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hacker15

Latest symptom of a national trend that started several years ago. The feeling among the antigun crowd was,

"Because of the 2nd Amendement, we can't totally stop the sale of firearms. We can, however so drive the firearms dealers out of business by rigedly enforceing the BATF's Byzantine rules and regulations. If there's nowhere for the purchaser to buy guns, we've effectively stopped the sale of firearms - and done it within the bounds of Constitution. If this doesn't work, let's legislate the sale of ammunition out of existance - there's nothing in the Constuition to ban that legal ruse. They can have all the guns they want - they just can't get anything to shoot in them."

Think this is a fable? Check out the NRA's site on the number of dealers in the country before Clinton/Reno. Check out the numbers today.

Now that is scary

VAXDGUY · 10-14-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUVMYSIGP225

That ATF has pencil neck wussies. The Army has M-1 tanks.

Pssstt....They're both part of "they."

O.C. 4 U · 10-14-2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAXDGUY

Pssstt....They're both part of "they."

Yeah, the ATF and the FBI have no problem borrowing a tank or two if they "need it". (Waco anyone?)

hacker15 · 10-14-2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKM

"........Guns are lethal devices!" So are cars. Cars kill orders of magnitudes more people in this country than guns. Pools kill more children than guns. So we need a Bureau of Automobiles and Pools to shut down all those evil scum selling death in our own neighborhoods.

Check out the AMA site for the numbers of patients killed each year by hospital/doctor "misdiagnoses" (i.e., medical mistakes). I think you'll be surprised at the numbers of ADMITTED problems. Prehaps we need a Federal agency to ban doctors.

Like my father used to say, "Doctors and undertakers have an understanding. You can tell this because, when they pass each other in the street, they wink."

BillSXT2002 · 10-15-2006, 07:45 PM

I don't mean to come off as a jerk, but your ATF friend should also know that these kinds of raids aren't necessary to determin whether someone is buying multiple guns. There is actually a separate form that the shop is required to fill out if a certain number of guns are purchased in a given time period. Trust me, the AFT can easily find out who is buying multiple guns. Going hard on the shop doesn't help build the case against the offender, and there is NOTHING illegal about buying multiple guns. It may be "immoral," and the shop has discretion to deny suspicious people, but it is not required, as long the forms are filled out.

By the way, abbreviating and things like that DO give the dealer points toward revocation of the FFL. You may not lose it for one, but if you accumulate points that way, you DO lose it.

**hobocircus** · 10-16-2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeyboy

There is no law against someone who wants to come in your store and buys 10 glock 19s in one day, and does it every day for a month, but the gun store has a moral obligation to the public to either deny the sale or to tip off the police.

I picked up 2 consecutive serial numbered .22 pistols at my local gunshop here in Nevada. They have to send the ATF a multiple handgun purchase form. If you buy a pistol then wait 5 days and buy another one then it's no problem.
I live on a avenue. Once while filling out the 4473, I put in ave. That was a no no (the clerk was watching every pen stroke). How the heck do you spell Boulevard?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeyboy

There is no law against someone who wants to come in your store and buys 10 glock 19s in one day

Actually us XD fans beg to differ. A glick purchaser should be flogged!

LUVMYSIGP225 · 10-16-2006, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAXDGUY

Pssstt....They're both part of "they."

I know that. Being an Army vet, I really like to think otherwise. My fed agent buddy sums it up very well for me. "I took an oath to uphold the CONSTITUTION of the United States. I didn't take an oath to obey "they""

Brad Johnson · 10-16-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

If someone buys 100 guns in a month, or even 10 guns in a month, for multiple months or even one, what are the odds that he's a hobbyist versus a criminal? Is this something that the ATF should look into, definitely. If it's just a guy who loves guns, great. If it isn't I'm glad I wasted my tiny percentage of tax money, as well as yours, to check into that.

Look into? Maybe. However, the BATF(E)'s version of "look into" usually involves yet another incremental regulation aimed not at the criminals but at those of us who have no desire to break the law.

Again, who is to say how many guns is "too many"? And how many freedoms are you willing to sacrifice for a (false) sense of security?

Quote:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin (Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, Tue, Nov 11, 1755)

Brad

10-15-2006, 07:45 PM	#57
BillSXT2002 XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 245	I don't mean to come off as a jerk, but your ATF friend should also know that these kinds of raids aren't necessary to determin whether someone is buying multiple guns. There is actually a separate form that the shop is required to fill out if a certain number of guns are purchased in a given time period. Trust me, the AFT can easily find out who is buying multiple guns. Going hard on the shop doesn't help build the case against the offender, and there is NOTHING illegal about buying multiple guns. It may be "immoral," and the shop has discretion to deny suspicious people, but it is not required, as long the forms are filled out. By the way, abbreviating and things like that DO give the dealer points toward revocation of the FFL. You may not lose it for one, but if you accumulate points that way, you DO lose it. __________________ "I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes too much upon constitutions, upon laws, and upon courts. These are false hopes; believe me, these are false hopes. Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it." -L. Hand

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10-13-2006, 09:14 PM	#52
Neoprofin XDTalk Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 31	He's intentially saying don't be so naive. If someone buys 100 guns in a month, or even 10 guns in a month, for multiple months or even one, what are the odds that he's a hobbyist versus a criminal? Is this something that the ATF should look into, definitely. If it's just a guy who loves guns, great. If it isn't I'm glad I wasted my tiny percentage of tax money, as well as yours, to check into that. Furthermore, paperwork errors are not hard to prevent, nor are the kind of "invetory discrepencies" that allow countless guns into improper hands. Last time I bought a rifle I was only half listening when the guy said to make sure not to abbreiviate anything, and he went back through all of my paperwork and made me fix absolutely everything. He still has a job and the gunstore is still in business. If an agency has the power to shut you down with absolutely no recourse maybe, just maybe, you should take their paperwork related regulations seriously.