A.T.F. Bastards!

[LUVMYSIGP225]

Originally Posted by hacker15

I think they've tried, but it's kind of hard to unseat an entrenched federal organization like the BATFE.

It is easy to squash federal organizations. Take away all of their funding. Period. Ask the E.P.A how that works. If the local field offices get cut back to two field agents and a secretary, they will have little luck getting much done. Oh well, the more the ATF takes a hard-ass stance, the more our hobby goes underground where they cannot regulate it.

[seed]

Originally Posted by BillSXT2002

I should clarify a bit. I don't believe you get shut down for ONE mispelling. You get a point for it, and those points are what will get the FFL pulled.

Another important point is that these regulations are not necessarily law. The common response is "well change the law then!" The ATF is an administrative agency operating under an enabling statute, giving them discretion to make rules on HOW TO ENFORCE the very general enabling statutes. The ATF is part of the executive branch, but lately has [in my opinion] been diving headfirst into the legislative and especially the judicial branch areas. Just try to get an administrative agency to back off a regulation. In effect, by doing that they are giving up power. Who wants to do that?

It's interesting that with just about every unbusiness-friendly agency in government, the first thing the Bush administration did was put in industry insiders who then proceeded to predictably go about wreaking havoc from within, on the very agencies created to protect the people from industry abuses...but not the ATF. They are as abusive and more menacing than ever...especially to categorically law-abiding peasants.

[seed]

Originally Posted by LUVMYSIGP225

It is easy to squash federal organizations. Take away all of their funding. Period. Ask the E.P.A how that works. If the local field offices get cut back to two field agents and a secretary, they will have little luck getting much done. Oh well, the more the ATF takes a hard-ass stance, the more our hobby goes underground where they cannot regulate it.

Exactly. But the more they abuse our rights with the goal of disarming the very entity they fear the most: the general populace, the more I am inclined to agree with all those in the "from my cold, dead hands" crowd. And I am on the far left end of the political spectrum. But before anyone says anything about the Democrats, understand that I cannot stand either party. They are virtually identical, run by the elites with only semantics and relatively meaningless, made for the (cooperative, corporate-owned) U.S. press -- differences separating them.

Bush, or rather his puppeteers are not pro-gun. But it is important for him and the Republicans in the executive branch to appear so. They achieve their appearance of being pro-2A, thanks to the obvious and politically stupid antics of the Democrats. And yet 2A still gets neutered (albeit much more slowly and less obviously) through such things as the relatively quiet tactics of the powerful ATF.

[hacker15]

The basic issue is that BATFE has a "chilling" policy in place, and has had one since the mid '90's.

H.R. 5092--the “Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) Modernization and Reform Act of 2006,” by Reps. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) and Bobby Scott (D-Va.) -- will curb the agency’s efforts to revoke dealers’ licenses for minor paperwork errors, improve the appeals process for dealers, and, establish new guidelines for BATFE investigations. This bill was drafted in large part to address recent, blatant BATFE abuses at Richmond, Virginia gun shows highlighted in hearings before the U.S. House Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security.

This isn't part of an overall effort to close out the ability to purchase weapons?

[Timmy44221]

Did that legislation pass? I know of some stores by me that have been shut down (NE OH). The one I frequent is being shut down. The ATF wont let them appeal, or even know all of the acusations. And they wont let them appear in fornt of a judge. So Basicly the ATF says you broke a law, but i wont tell you which one, and you cant defend yourself so we are revoking your licence. And we wont licence anyone else who knows you guys, so they cant reopen the store either. Even though they havent done anything wrong.

[LUVMYSIGP225]

The guys in the Falls have an attorney and are appealing. Very costly.

[AwPhuch]

Originally Posted by seed

Exactly. But the more they abuse our rights with the goal of disarming the very entity they fear the most: the general populace, the more I am inclined to agree with all those in the "from my cold, dead hands" crowd. And I am on the far left end of the political spectrum. But before anyone says anything about the Democrats, understand that I cannot stand either party. They are virtually identical, run by the elites with only semantics and relatively meaningless, made for the (cooperative, corporate-owned) U.S. press -- differences separating them.

Bush, or rather his puppeteers are not pro-gun. But it is important for him and the Republicans in the executive branch to appear so. They achieve their appearance of being pro-2A, thanks to the obvious and politically stupid antics of the Democrats. And yet 2A still gets neutered (albeit much more slowly and less obviously) through such things as the relatively quiet tactics of the powerful ATF.

Salute +1

[maverick9614]

Originally Posted by Timmy44221

So Basicly the ATF says you broke a law, but i wont tell you which one, and you cant defend yourself so we are revoking your licence. And we wont licence anyone else who knows you guys, so they cant reopen the store either. Even though they havent done anything wrong.

Most people have the miscomception that if the government makes a "grab" for our guns, it will be with a SWAT team riding in an APC into your front yard. Not so, it's backhanded bull%^&* like that which will eventually lead to a nation of unarmed, overlegislated sheeple.


Man, do I come off as paranoid or what?

[hacker15]

Originally Posted by maverick9614

Most people have the miscomception that if the government makes a "grab" for our guns, it will be with a SWAT team riding in an APC into your front yard. Not so, it's backhanded bull%^&* like that which will eventually lead to a nation of unarmed, overlegislated sheeple.


Man, do I come off as paranoid or what?

No, you come off as a rational person, with a good grasp of where this is all heading.

[seed]

Originally Posted by maverick9614

Most people have the miscomception that if the government makes a "grab" for our guns, it will be with a SWAT team riding in an APC into your front yard. Not so, it's backhanded bull%^&* like that which will eventually lead to a nation of unarmed, overlegislated sheeple.


Man, do I come off as paranoid or what?

No you don't sound paranoid. But that is how the mainstream U.S. press will spin the opinions of people such as yourself (and many others) so that you will feel almost silly for stating what you know to be factual. If we have to qualify every argument we make, or just feel as if we do, then it effectively helps take the wind out of our sails. The media works very hard (or hard enough) to lump everybody into a group with a face of some toothless, back-woods, extremist stereotype that is beyond reason and lacking any semblance of intelligence. It is way too simple to spin what we stand for. That is why it is so very important that we represent the side of pro-2A with the utmost dignity and competence, free of marriage with other political issues.

As I said, I am on the far left of the political spectrum, and yet you will not find a stronger advocate of the 2A anywhere. But tell that to some of the people on Glocktalk. You can't...which is why I now avoid getting into political discussions over there. I'm glad I came back to this site. It is so refreshing to talk (or type) with people with such class.