A.T.F. Bastards!

[hacker15]

Originally Posted by Dustoff '68

My take is if you can't read the rules, and comply with same, then you have no business having an FFL.

You don't get it, do you? In order to keep your license, you have to comply with ALL the rules. Any minor trangression (like putting OH for Ohio) will enable them to pull your license, putting you out of business. Now, I don't know where you get your guns, but if there are no dealers available to meet the need because they've been shut down for these minor rule transgressions, you (and everyone else who wants one) won't be able to get one.

The point is, you can't comply with all the rules - they've made it so that if you do what is indicated in one rule, you're violating another rule in a different section. Was this intentional? I tend to think that some of it was - and some of it is the needless growth in gun control legislation. BATFE needs to go through this nightmare and make recommendations to simplify these rules.

[nikon777]

Originally Posted by LUVMYSIGP225

Anyone else out there seeing a large influx of reputable gun dealers being shut down by the A.T.F. for clerical errors and miscellaneous bull$hit? I live in Northern, Ohio, and have seen close to ten dealers closed down recently due to simple clerical errors on the A.T.F. purchase forms. Things like the state being abbreviated OH instead of Ohio. Anyone seeing their local dealers being stomped out. This is of grave concern in Northeast, Ohio right now. We are losing dealers left and right. I know that the House of Reps just passed the A.T.F. reform bill, however, this bill is not passed the whole congress yet, and in the meantime, dealers are dropping like flies with very little recourse.

My local dealer is one of the most reputable, oldest dealers that you have ever seen. Sort of a family oriented place where people like to hang around and drink coffee and yack about guns. A lot of local L.E.O. hang out in uniform and off-duty talking about guns and buying their ammo and holsters and duty accessories. A few Feds from other agencies even spend a lot of time there. I have seen this dealer turn away numerous potential sales because he didn't like how someone was acting, or appeared intoxicated or emotionally distressed. THESE ARE GOOD GUYS!

A.T.F. agents(auditors) walk in and shut him down for really petty infractions.

Any feedback from other areas of the country?

I'm in NE Ohio...what dealer are u referring to?. i hope not Atlantic gun and tackle. those guys deserve to be shut down. a bunch of racist arrogant SOBs

[seed]

Originally Posted by hacker15

You don't get it, do you? In order to keep your license, you have to comply with ALL the rules. Any minor trangression (like putting OH for Ohio) will enable them to pull your license, putting you out of business. Now, I don't know where you get your guns, but if there are no dealers available to meet the need because they've been shut down for these minor rule transgressions, you (and everyone else who wants one) won't be able to get one.

The point is, you can't comply with all the rules - they've made it so that if you do what is indicated in one rule, you're violating another rule in a different section. Was this intentional? I tend to think that some of it was - and some of it is the needless growth in gun control legislation. BATFE needs to go through this nightmare and make recommendations to simplify these rules.

Hacker15 is absolutely right. These so-called infractions which are being used to circumvent what little rights we have left, are nothing more than Mickey Mouse, nonsensical, idiotic excuses to screw over the underclass and nonprivileged peasants from owning and operating guns. So called inproper abbreviations, mispellings, accidental wrong dates, etc are NOT good enough reasons to hassle, much less close down FFL's. Anyone who feels differently is either a blow-hard, short-sighted keyboard warrior, or a power-abusing LEO with a sense of entitlement and accompanying superiority complex (you all know the type...don't say you don't).

I too have heard of these shut-downs. The truth is that FFL's are at the mercy of the ATF agent assigned to them. Even (obviously reasonable) LEO's, with whom I have talked about this issue are disgusted.

[LUVMYSIGP225]

Originally Posted by jeff221

First off, I don't buy the fact that they lost the FFL because someone put "OH" instead of "OHIO" once or twice... My guess is you have no idea the actual reason for the shutdown and you're assuming it's these "typo" errors.

No offense, but I don't buy it. I'm certain if the ATF showed up and tried to shut my shop down for "OH vs. OHIO" my attorney would have it straightened out within a day and I'd be back in business. And you can't tell me a shop open for 20-30 years doesn't have an attorney to fix this issue for them.

There is more to this story, either you don't know or your not telling, either way, there is more here than meets the eye.

Then why multiple dealers in the SAME week? MULTIPLE! They just ALL happened to go corrupt the same week after twenty years of business?

[LUVMYSIGP225]

Originally Posted by nikon777

I'm in NE Ohio...what dealer are u referring to?. i hope not Atlantic gun and tackle. those guys deserve to be shut down. a bunch of racist arrogant SOBs

Nikon,

No sir, haven't heard of Atlantic. Pro Gun in C. Falls has been forced to liquidate and is supposed to be shut down by Nov. 14. Deer Hunter in Barberton got popped the same week. The list goes on. Another dealer in Cleveland area, I can check the name. From what I have heard from three or four sources, the list approaches ten stores in Northeast Ohio.

[LUVMYSIGP225]

OH, and one more thing. All of this on top of the fact that AMMO IS DRYING UP. I have heard reasons ranging from manufacturers are diverting supplies to the war effort to other nonsense. Over the years, retailers like K-Mart and others have gotten out of the handgun ammo business. After the Bowling for Columbine movie, K-Mart quit handling all handgun and "military" ammo. Go try to buy a box of .308 at K-Mart. Wal-Mart is creeping their prices up big time, and reducing stock along with cutting gun sales(not that I would buy a gun that Wal Mart sells). My dealer is going nuts trying to find reasonable ammunition suppliers. He is creeping his prices up significantly, and many times he is completely out of range\cheap ammo, leaving us shooting high dollar stuff on the range. I am seeing the ammo problem everywhere around here. Anyone got any great leads on cheap .308 or .45 ACP, I am ALL EARS!

[Old School]

These dealers still have due-process available to them, and if they feel they are within the law and being unlawfully targeted, they can fight as much in court. I know, fighting BIG GOV is no simple and inexpensive task. That is what the NRA is for; to help the little man fight the big, bad bear.

The yellow sheet rules are pretty clear; no abbreviations. It is the responsibility of the gun shop to make sure the forms are completed properly. I agree that it is Mickey Mouse, but it is the way it is. Gun Shops need to understand this, until the laws relax.

I don't think there is a grandiose conspiracy on ammo. I just think that manufacturers are at a point where they need to start making money or they will go away. When you make a product that everyone wants to legislate/control, you need to defend yourself and that defense is not free. It is a cost of doing business and you need to bake that cost into the cost of your products.

OS

[BillSXT2002]

I should clarify a bit. I don't believe you get shut down for ONE mispelling. You get a point for it, and those points are what will get the FFL pulled.

Another important point is that these regulations are not necessarily law. The common response is "well change the law then!" The ATF is an administrative agency operating under an enabling statute, giving them discretion to make rules on HOW TO ENFORCE the very general enabling statutes. The ATF is part of the executive branch, but lately has [in my opinion] been diving headfirst into the legislative and especially the judicial branch areas. Just try to get an administrative agency to back off a regulation. In effect, by doing that they are giving up power. Who wants to do that?

How about we crack down on the dealers who are conducting back door sales instead? That is a pretty easy thing to determine. The sort of regulatory control we are seeing now has been and is going to be a slippery slope.

[mullanman]

Originally Posted by jeff221

I was told in another thread that Illegal = Illegal.. Mass Muder is the same as J-Walking (there is no "More Illegal", or so I'm told). Thus, if you write "OH" instead of "OHIO" then you've broken the law.. Shut'em'down!

Actually abbreviations for states is legal and accepted in courts of law...Why should they not be legal on a simple ATF form.


It would be similar to you not getting your paycheck because you simply put your initials on the time card, or having you car taken away for a simple traffic stop...i.e. your taillight was out...

Get real.

[hacker15]

Originally Posted by Old School

These dealers still have due-process available to them, and if they feel they are within the law and being unlawfully targeted, they can fight as much in court. I know, fighting BIG GOV is no simple and inexpensive task. That is what the NRA is for; to help the little man fight the big, bad bear.

The yellow sheet rules are pretty clear; no abbreviations. It is the responsibility of the gun shop to make sure the forms are completed properly. I agree that it is Mickey Mouse, but it is the way it is. Gun Shops need to understand this, until the laws relax.

I don't think there is a grandiose conspiracy on ammo. I just think that manufacturers are at a point where they need to start making money or they will go away. When you make a product that everyone wants to legislate/control, you need to defend yourself and that defense is not free. It is a cost of doing business and you need to bake that cost into the cost of your products.

OS

OS, when I first moved to this area from Texas (and I'm so I ever did) there were at least 10 gun shops within a 20 minute drive of my house. Today, there are 3. Even major outlets (Dick's and WM come to mind) have stopped selling guns (both long arms and handguns). Has demand gone down? Don't think so - more young people are hunting and talking about the shooting sports then when I started. I've talked to a few of the former smaller gun shop owners - both guys who lost their FFL license through BATFE pulls, and guys who surrendered theirs voluntarily. Those who lost their license were, for the most part, hit with very minor infractions (date of sale off by a day, transposing a number on a NICs approval, things like that). The one's who gave it up cited the cost of doing business in order to compy with the BATFE rules and regs as being a prime reason for leaving the business.

Now, how do you get the law to "relax"? With the anti's screaming for blood, do you think Congress (the great "do nothing" body in Washington) is going to take action? If you do, you have more faith in this group than I do.

Ammo is another story - the costs there are growing due to several factors, chief of these being the increased cost for the metals used to make brass and lead. Worldwide demand for these is growing and the ammo manufacturer is at the mercy of the marketplace. Costs incurred due to fighting needless lawsuits sure doesn't help.