Gun vs. Knife Follow Up with Video - Page 2 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

danp · 09-15-2006, 10:32 AM

That video was either staged for some reason or was just the beginning of a training video and the rest of it showed officers how to move off line.

Every cop I know is familiar with the Tueller Drill. 21 feet is the absolute closest you let a knife-weilding suspect get to you. If you are rushed, either go hand-to-hand or move off line and point shoot from the hip. That whole draw and fully extend thing shown in the video may (or may not) work on the range, but it sure as heck ain't gonna work in some dark alley.

hacker15 · 09-15-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danp

That video was either staged for some reason or was just the beginning of a training video and the rest of it showed officers how to move off line.

Every cop I know is familiar with the Tueller Drill. 21 feet is the absolute closest you let a knife-weilding suspect get to you. If you are rushed, either go hand-to-hand or move off line and point shoot from the hip. That whole draw and fully extend thing shown in the video may (or may not) work on the range, but it sure as heck ain't gonna work in some dark alley.

You got that right. If you can't get to cover, we're trained to move to our weak side after he starts the rush (hard for an attacker to make a turn once he's committed), draw and fire as soon as the gun clears the holster. May not hit him with the first shot, but it gives you a better chance to get off additional rounds that should stop him. If nothing else, it will scare the HELL out of him.

Tomcat088 · 09-16-2006, 09:08 PM

One thing I wanted to mention is that even if an officer does hit an assailant charing him with the first round, it isn't a guaruntee that s/he won't be killed. A bullet passes through someone, even if it's a hollow point and makes a pretty big hole, it doesn't knock them instantly on the flat of their back like a magic force field. So even if you shot from the hip and made a center mass shot, the momentum of the assailant, or the determination can cause them to continue the movement; if they hit the carotid or jugular, it'll be fatal. In my Krav Maga training, they talked about how in those instances, your best chance of survival is to go into hand to hand combat, immobilize the assailant, or gain some distance and fire your weapon. If they're traveling at you, simply shooting the assailant probably isn't gonna save your life, even if you hit them in the brain stem, momentum could be fatal.

**Bycyclist** · 09-16-2006, 10:46 PM

Also, these officers were doing full draw, instead of hand already on the gun or maybe even drawn, if they were in Condition Orange/Red, which I think would buy them another half sec or so.

But this whole Tueller thing bugs me a little, because it shows how ineffective 100% gun-centric training is. Kind of a straw man argument. If you were training to gain situational awareness, visual response, proper breathing, angles of movement, and moving on time, I think you can create a bit more distance and time.

For the attacker to cover that distance at that speed, he's entirely committed to a linear attack. However, from a stationary position, many angles of movement are available, which would put you at 90 degrees to the centerline of his attack, allowing you to response with or without your gun.

coastemac · 09-17-2006, 08:30 AM

21 foot rule is what we train on as well... not to be underestimated !!!

The Knight Of Light · 09-17-2006, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coastemac

21 foot rule is what we train on as well... not to be underestimated !!!

Because of pirates?

coastemac · 09-17-2006, 08:37 AM

Ha Ha, very funny... smart @$$ !!!

The Knight Of Light · 09-17-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coastemac

Ha Ha, very funny... smart @$$ !!!

AAhhh ha ha ha I got a million of 'em!

coastemac · 09-17-2006, 09:17 AM

Thats why I like you knight... remind me of... well, me !!! A real Smart @$$ when I want to be... but at least I make people laugh, even if its only AT them !!!

**Bycyclist** · 09-17-2006, 02:27 PM

Stay tuned, I'll see if I can video what I'm taking about and post one of these weeks. I want to run the typical Tueller with me standing there and getting drilled by the knife, moving laterally and drawing with better movement, etc. to see if I can shoot the BG a couple of times as he passes by, and then see how close we can get before I get nailed. I just need to find a volunteer willing to be shot by my 340fps airsoft Glock 18 replica.

09-15-2006, 10:32 AM	#11
danp XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 1,420	That video was either staged for some reason or was just the beginning of a training video and the rest of it showed officers how to move off line. Every cop I know is familiar with the Tueller Drill. 21 feet is the absolute closest you let a knife-weilding suspect get to you. If you are rushed, either go hand-to-hand or move off line and point shoot from the hip. That whole draw and fully extend thing shown in the video may (or may not) work on the range, but it sure as heck ain't gonna work in some dark alley. __________________ God made cops so that firefighters could have heros too. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzche

09-16-2006, 10:46 PM	#14
Bycyclist XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NorCaliforneeya Posts: 1,844	Also, these officers were doing full draw, instead of hand already on the gun or maybe even drawn, if they were in Condition Orange/Red, which I think would buy them another half sec or so. But this whole Tueller thing bugs me a little, because it shows how ineffective 100% gun-centric training is. Kind of a straw man argument. If you were training to gain situational awareness, visual response, proper breathing, angles of movement, and moving on time, I think you can create a bit more distance and time. For the attacker to cover that distance at that speed, he's entirely committed to a linear attack. However, from a stationary position, many angles of movement are available, which would put you at 90 degrees to the centerline of his attack, allowing you to response with or without your gun. __________________ =============================================== BYcyclist - the worst day on a ride (or at the range) is better than the best day in the office ===============================================

09-17-2006, 08:30 AM	#15
coastemac XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Miami Area, Florida Posts: 1,194	21 foot rule is what we train on as well... not to be underestimated !!! __________________ coastemac U.S. Coast Guard Gunnersmate XD Service Dark Earth .45 ACP (new) XD Sub-Compact Bi-Tone .40 cal Savage Model 10 FP (6X-18X 42mm) Marlin Model 336RC 30-30 Marlin Model 17VS .17 HMR Taurus PT-908 9mm Ruger 22/45 .22lr (and a few others...)

09-17-2006, 08:37 AM	#17
coastemac XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Miami Area, Florida Posts: 1,194	Ha Ha, very funny... smart @$$ !!! __________________ coastemac U.S. Coast Guard Gunnersmate XD Service Dark Earth .45 ACP (new) XD Sub-Compact Bi-Tone .40 cal Savage Model 10 FP (6X-18X 42mm) Marlin Model 336RC 30-30 Marlin Model 17VS .17 HMR Taurus PT-908 9mm Ruger 22/45 .22lr (and a few others...)

09-17-2006, 09:17 AM	#19
coastemac XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Miami Area, Florida Posts: 1,194	Thats why I like you knight... remind me of... well, me !!! A real Smart @$$ when I want to be... but at least I make people laugh, even if its only AT them !!! __________________ coastemac U.S. Coast Guard Gunnersmate XD Service Dark Earth .45 ACP (new) XD Sub-Compact Bi-Tone .40 cal Savage Model 10 FP (6X-18X 42mm) Marlin Model 336RC 30-30 Marlin Model 17VS .17 HMR Taurus PT-908 9mm Ruger 22/45 .22lr (and a few others...)

09-16-2006, 09:08 PM	#13
Tomcat088 XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Lubbock, Tx Posts: 688	One thing I wanted to mention is that even if an officer does hit an assailant charing him with the first round, it isn't a guaruntee that s/he won't be killed. A bullet passes through someone, even if it's a hollow point and makes a pretty big hole, it doesn't knock them instantly on the flat of their back like a magic force field. So even if you shot from the hip and made a center mass shot, the momentum of the assailant, or the determination can cause them to continue the movement; if they hit the carotid or jugular, it'll be fatal. In my Krav Maga training, they talked about how in those instances, your best chance of survival is to go into hand to hand combat, immobilize the assailant, or gain some distance and fire your weapon. If they're traveling at you, simply shooting the assailant probably isn't gonna save your life, even if you hit them in the brain stem, momentum could be fatal.

09-17-2006, 02:27 PM	#20
Bycyclist XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NorCaliforneeya Posts: 1,844	Stay tuned, I'll see if I can video what I'm taking about and post one of these weeks. I want to run the typical Tueller with me standing there and getting drilled by the knife, moving laterally and drawing with better movement, etc. to see if I can shoot the BG a couple of times as he passes by, and then see how close we can get before I get nailed. I just need to find a volunteer willing to be shot by my 340fps airsoft Glock 18 replica. __________________ =============================================== BYcyclist - the worst day on a ride (or at the range) is better than the best day in the office ===============================================

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