Again Proving why certain jobs should NOT be Privatized

[EMN83]

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

Still I never saw them do this on Baywatch!

LMAO there is no response to that

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

Saying someone shouldn't sue when something happens that is not their fault is hogwash. Blaming the victim. Shotgun suing happens because corps play hide the buck and pawn off liability games too and practice litigate to submission and appeal to perpetuity games because they are rich enough.

Still, privates are more likely to take "advantage" of such situation. Reducing potential "liability" wherever possible (just look at all the anti-gun rules, 30-06 signs, etc.). Cutting costs, reducing staff all in the name of max profits. Yes, Gov can be idiots too, but they tend to also be job creators and have two lifeguards per station. How many times have corps been caught playing the it's cheaper to insure than prevent game?

I'm not saying the victim shouldn't sue if there is a case. What I'm saying is that allowing anyone to sue anyone in relation to an unfortunate occurence requires corporations to take measures that protect themselves that often lead to more problems. In this case, the corporation feels that it must protect itself from lawsuit by releasing the lifeguard that, right or wrong, performed outside the corporation's defined limits. Do you think the company released the lifeguard simply because it would "save money" and was within its legal right to do so? That is an absurd argument because that company now has to prospect, hire and train a replacement employee, which is much more expensive than keeping a good employee. However, due to the threat of lawsuit that could bankrupt the company and result in ALL of its employees losing their jobs, it likely made the decision to protect the whole company.

The company always gets the blame in these situations. However, there are lawyers that will look at this, realize that the lifeguard acted outside his defined jurisdiction, seek out the victim, and convince that victim that, although the lifeguard saved your life, you are legally entitled to sue and have all of your medical costs, in addition to pain and suffering, loss of income, and a little bit more paid for.

"shotgun suing" does not happen because corporations "hide the buck." Quite the opposite: corporations hire (very expensive) lawyers to create contract language to protect themselves because of frivolous lawsuits that look for someone, anyone, to pay for misfortunes.

With regards to a gov't entity: true, the employee wouldn't be fired. He'd probably be protected by a gov't union (likely SEIU). In fact, that union would probably find a way to argue that by hiring additional lifeguards and requiring that they join the union and pay dues, potential life threatening situations would never, ever arise simply because there are more gov't employees.

And while you might be able to argue that gov't technically creates jobs, it does so by taking those jobs away from private companies. And gov't does not create money or wealth with those jobs - it must first take money away from private entities via taxes that it filters through buracracies before paying those employees.

I agree that a lifeguard or any employee should absolutely not be fired for doing his/her job, especially if lifesaving is involved.

I will never understand the mindset that all private corporations are inherently greedy while government counterparts are inherently good, selfless and benevolent. Remember that those government buracracies are staffed by humans, just like corporations, and that working for a gov't entity does not remove greed and selfishness any more than working for a corporation creates greed and selfishness.

[rambro]

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

Similar to the BS worries over guns in the workplace, lifeguard fired for saving a drowning victim. Get this, because it was mere feet outside of the "official" area his company was paid to protect. Company claims liability reasons in case someone starts drowning in their zone. Ahh the old "liability reasons" raise their ugly head to explain stupidity.

Lifeguard fired for helping in beach rescue in Hallandale Beach - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

some people can't understand rules. He was on the clock, other people need to be paid also, he cant ruin it for everyone by being sued, even if they win, it might cost conservatively a half million bucks. A life death law suit, can get appealed two or three times, and easy go for 1.5-2 million bucks defending it, plus all the time the managers are pulled out of work to testify go to court, etc etc. Three million bucks total loss would not be far fetched at all. Even if he saved the kid, he can be sued, as he was not supposed to be the one saving anyone there.

Also you have to throw under the bus, the liberal trial lawyers, who make it impossible for people like that guy to do good, and the company to let it go.

Things like this, common sense, went out the window in the 1970s because trial lawyers needed only to appeal to the liberal, emotional, lowest common denominator.

[rambro]

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

Saying someone shouldn't sue when something happens that is not their fault is hogwash. Blaming the victim. Shotgun suing happens because corps play hide the buck and pawn off liability games too and practice litigate to submission and appeal to perpetuity games because they are rich enough.

Still, privates are more likely to take "advantage" of such situation. Reducing potential "liability" wherever possible (just look at all the anti-gun rules, 30-06 signs, etc.). Cutting costs, reducing staff all in the name of max profits. Yes, Gov can be idiots too, but they tend to also be job creators and have two lifeguards per station. How many times have corps been caught playing the it's cheaper to insure than prevent game?

your showing your true colors. You can't even admit its flawed system, or people in general default to greed and easy money, its all corps doing this.

Not when its before juries, its emotional, liberal folks, crazy big judgements, and the idea other people should care more about you, and your safety, than you do. Thats how you get to where we are. Not corps.

You need to look into some john stossel vids on debunking many liberal myths on privatizing. Its just the opposite.

Public workers have no accountability. Often when you do bad, you get paid a half million bucks to sit at home for 3-4 years, then leave, not fired with another half million bucks, and you are free to seek further employment. Rubber room teachers are a great example. Cops caught on camera who go on paid leave, etc. Private companies just get dropped if they do not produce results, and do it on budget, and often cheaper than 50% or more the public job cost, AND still produce a profit.

Private companies often have the better gear, newer gear, better training and more because there are not layers and layers of red tape to go through.

[Rustynuts]

Originally Posted by rambro

Private companies often have the better gear, newer gear, better training and more because there are not layers and layers of red tape to go through.

LOL, really? What companies have you worked for? Most privates I've seen doing public contacts get by with cheapest/oldest they can, work them to death, then sell them to another division so they can double depreciate the equipment. That's how one company I worked for got in trouble, heads rolled and the stock tanked.

Public entities doing the same work usually had the best equipment, not the other way around. Do you actually do business with privates in public sector work and/or publics? Or just spewing the typical Repub blather about government jobs? How many corp execs have ripped off their own companies and the public? blah blah, etc, etc. Enron, Wall Street, banks, Chase trading losses, ............ Privates aren't saints either.

[rambro]

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

LOL, really? What companies have you worked for? Most privates I've seen doing public contacts get by with cheapest/oldest they can, work them to death, then sell them to another division so they can double depreciate the equipment. That's how one company I worked for got in trouble, heads rolled and the stock tanked.

I didnt say it was impossible, but whats the motive, long term profit, or hump and dump, and perfect timing. You even said the stock tanked. That means they lost.

The same things happen at big multi hundred million dollar, to multi billion dollar agencies all through out government.

In detroit, the police and schools are great examples of this, high costs in taxes, low performance. High pay (average DPS teacher makes 88k working 6 hour days ..... 1,146 hours per year. They retire young with pensions, and health car bennies NO one else can even get. So that is almost 190k if you made it a real 2,000 hr job.) Detroit buys stuff, full price, or inflated price, and beaurocratic mess stops stuff from even being delived, like mac books sitting in a warehouse, paid for, thousands, and then not being used. Yeah that happens. Same with little stuff, or its stolen.

There is NO accountability.

You just proved there is accountability in the private market, as heads rolled at the place you worked, and stock tanked.

Cops do not get paid less if crime goes up, teachers universally reject being rated and ranked. THEY WANT zero accountability.

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

Public entities doing the same work usually had the best equipment, not the other way around.

New town with no old retired workers, bleeding the system dry? This can be done in a new growing town or small burb. Not in places that were built up in the 1940s, or 1950s, and not with good credit ratings.

Show me the towns this is occuring in, and let me look up their bond rating, and ill look at their books and tell you in how many years from now they will be in receivership with the state.

List the towns. This happens in only the best managed, most upper middle class, or rich towns in each state, maybe 4-5 towns per state can do what you are saying.

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

Do you actually do business with privates in public sector work and/or publics?

Yes i own my own company, with employees, and we work in private homes, private business, and government agencies. I have contracts with city, state, county, and federal facilities. Also mom and pop, and a half dozen fortune 500 companies.

If i did not, how would that matter, this stuff is not secret. Thats why i want the names to the towns in your state with low crime, top gear, highly paid workers, clean streets, and top bond rating.

Originally Posted by Rustynuts

Or just spewing the typical Repub blather about government jobs? How many corp execs have ripped off their own companies and the public? blah blah, etc, etc. Enron, Wall Street, banks, Chase trading losses, ............ Privates aren't saints either.

Out of how many companies, and what was the fall out. Kids in detroit, dc, chicago, st. louis still have to go to crappy schools tommarrow, and live in a public housing that costs the state as much as a nice home in the burbs. Their is no alternative. No one is trying. They are coasting.

With no accountability humans default to lowest amount possible of effort, caring, even showing up.

In detroit, on any one day 35-40% of the workers call in across all agencies (thats from the paper, talked about on the local fm talk show, not a number out of my arse). My dad has gone 5 years or more with out a sick day, i know many guys who went decades with out missing a day of work.

My grandpa worked for the county, he never missed a day in 20 years. These sort of people mostly died out in the late 70s and 1980s. He was a farm boy.

The people that hold these jobs today, know sex and race matter most, and they all think they are owed 80-140k jobs and to retire at 50, and not even pay state taxes on their INCOME.

People in business do not care your are black, or hispanic, or a female. The government might make them care, or they buy from black supplier to put it on their web site, but in real competition in the real world, you could not be further from government work.

Its completely different. You do not know if you have a job in two weeks, and a college degree gets you a 60k job with major medical and 401k, and thats it, compared to highschool grads making over 100k, with 40k in bennies, and most can NEVER be fired.

Most government workers at state and federal level, their bennies are greater than the median income in america.

Thats not right.

[strick]

Will tell you I work for a public employer and it costs us more to have to private contract then if we have never contracted the work out.

If you do not think private companies are not in it for the money, then look closer at the benefits? What kind of healthcare do they offer the employees that do the most valuable work?? Give you a hint.. It is not CEO!!! It is the guys with the boots of the ground. Just look at Halliburton. We have some army national guards in the state of Oregon suing them because of the work in Iraq, just google to see.

Everyone company that comes in to replace public workers on the "bill" of saving money does it on the back of hard working Americans, Remember that.

I understand that in the public/private workforce there are good and bad companies/department.

As a public worker, I do see it that some public workers are not good for the job, but they keep their jobs because the managers do not get enough evidence to prove they did something wrong. Our union has even gone so far as willing to help train managers to perform better in this area as it makes helping keep good workers and get rid of bad workers. But this happens in the private sector as well.

Only difference between private and public is this, A private company does not have to answer to the public, however the public sector does. If a government agency is performing horrible you can have an elected official removed and new one installed that can try and change something.

[LockedBreech]

Originally Posted by rambro

I didnt say it was impossible, but whats the motive, long term profit, or hump and dump, and perfect timing. You even said the stock tanked. That means they lost.

The same things happen at big multi hundred million dollar, to multi billion dollar agencies all through out government.

In detroit, the police and schools are great examples of this, high costs in taxes, low performance. High pay (average DPS teacher makes 88k working 6 hour days ..... 1,146 hours per year. They retire young with pensions, and health car bennies NO one else can even get. So that is almost 190k if you made it a real 2,000 hr job.) Detroit buys stuff, full price, or inflated price, and beaurocratic mess stops stuff from even being delived, like mac books sitting in a warehouse, paid for, thousands, and then not being used. Yeah that happens. Same with little stuff, or its stolen.

There is NO accountability.

You just proved there is accountability in the private market, as heads rolled at the place you worked, and stock tanked.

Cops do not get paid less if crime goes up, teachers universally reject being rated and ranked. THEY WANT zero accountability.


New town with no old retired workers, bleeding the system dry? This can be done in a new growing town or small burb. Not in places that were built up in the 1940s, or 1950s, and not with good credit ratings.

Show me the towns this is occuring in, and let me look up their bond rating, and ill look at their books and tell you in how many years from now they will be in receivership with the state.

List the towns. This happens in only the best managed, most upper middle class, or rich towns in each state, maybe 4-5 towns per state can do what you are saying.




Yes i own my own company, with employees, and we work in private homes, private business, and government agencies. I have contracts with city, state, county, and federal facilities. Also mom and pop, and a half dozen fortune 500 companies.

If i did not, how would that matter, this stuff is not secret. Thats why i want the names to the towns in your state with low crime, top gear, highly paid workers, clean streets, and top bond rating.


Out of how many companies, and what was the fall out. Kids in detroit, dc, chicago, st. louis still have to go to crappy schools tommarrow, and live in a public housing that costs the state as much as a nice home in the burbs. Their is no alternative. No one is trying. They are coasting.

With no accountability humans default to lowest amount possible of effort, caring, even showing up.

In detroit, on any one day 35-40% of the workers call in across all agencies (thats from the paper, talked about on the local fm talk show, not a number out of my arse). My dad has gone 5 years or more with out a sick day, i know many guys who went decades with out missing a day of work.

My grandpa worked for the county, he never missed a day in 20 years. These sort of people mostly died out in the late 70s and 1980s. He was a farm boy.

The people that hold these jobs today, know sex and race matter most, and they all think they are owed 80-140k jobs and to retire at 50, and not even pay state taxes on their INCOME.

People in business do not care your are black, or hispanic, or a female. The government might make them care, or they buy from black supplier to put it on their web site, but in real competition in the real world, you could not be further from government work.

Its completely different. You do not know if you have a job in two weeks, and a college degree gets you a 60k job with major medical and 401k, and thats it, compared to highschool grads making over 100k, with 40k in bennies, and most can NEVER be fired.

Most government workers at state and federal level, their bennies are greater than the median income in america.

Thats not right.

Having a mom who was a teacher (though not in a super-union state, made maybe half the 88k you quoted after 25 years, with a Master's degree) maybe they don't want to be graded based on student grades because kids are horrible rotten *expletive* these days and the parents get mad at the teachers and not the kids when there's a discipline issue.

[EMN83]

Originally Posted by LockedBreech

Having a mom who was a teacher (though not in a super-union state, made maybe half the 88k you quoted after 25 years, with a Master's degree) maybe they don't want to be graded based on student grades because kids are horrible rotten *expletive* these days and the parents get mad at the teachers and not the kids when there's a discipline issue.

LOL...you hit the nail on the head. PC BS has made it nearly impossible to actually punish kids at school, and a lot of parents want schools to basically raise their kids....schools are there for education only, but a lot of things that should be taught at home are not

[rambro]

Originally Posted by strick

Will tell you I work for a public employer and it costs us more to have to private contract then if we have never contracted the work out.

Source? Per hour? I am not saying you are saying this, but it amazes how many people think what people are paid, that is the cost of the employee. For example, teachers, people think teachers make 25-35k even though i just shared in poor bankrupt detroit the media wage is 88k. It is does not cost the school district just 88k per room, it costs them 300-400k just for the teacher.

I run into this all the time, people think they make 30-50-100 per hour, and if they hire me and my company, we simply must charge less than they make personally per hour, or we are ripping them off.

Thats not how it works.

I would like to see the specifics of what you are talking about, and if you are considering all costs, or just what the company charges per man hour vs what the public sector worker was paid per hour. Many union folks like saw UAW, they make in total, with all bennies, $74-78 bucks per hour, and many do not know this, and if you told them that, they say you are a liar, even though its the truth. They think they make $25-35 per hour.

Originally Posted by strick

If you do not think private companies are not in it for the money, then look closer at the benefits?

huh? I didnt say they were not in it for the money, why even get out of bed in the morning if not for money?

Look at the benefits, explain more please.

Originally Posted by strick

What kind of healthcare do they offer the employees that do the most valuable work?? Give you a hint.. It is not CEO!!!

Well who is it, the COO, the CFO ?

Its not you at the bottom or near the bottom, or even the middle. I have to hear this all the time, the most common is never the most important. Lets take the UAW example above, i have to hear this from UAW guys all the time. The company gets no where with out financing. Just building a new factory is always 1 billion bucks, and usually around 1,000 jobs. Unless the union schlubs ALL SHOW up with million dollar checks for every person, then they are just guys screwing bumpers on minivans, with three days training.

How many days training do you have?

Do you have a MBA from a top 20 university, and 20 years experience, and history of success. I can tell from your rant on CEO's you have none of that. Which is fine, i don't have any of that either.

Originally Posted by strick

It is the guys with the boots of the ground. Just look at Halliburton. We have some army national guards in the state of Oregon suing them because of the work in Iraq, just google to see.

Everyone is sued all the time, your nobody if you haven't been sued a half dozen times.

Its not the guys on the ground that are important, not if there are thousands of them, they logically cant all be the most important, and they are not equal, and they do not have more in that a guy with a MBA from stanford, and 20 years experience, who turned two divisions around, and has made the company a couple hundred million bucks. Nope. No way.

Originally Posted by strick

Everyone company that comes in to replace public workers on the "bill" of saving money does it on the back of hard working Americans, Remember that.

Originally Posted by strick

I understand that in the public/private workforce there are good and bad companies/department.

Originally Posted by strick

As a public worker, I do see it that some public workers are not good for the job, but they keep their jobs because the managers do not get enough evidence to prove they did something wrong.

Wrong. LIES. You often simply cannot fire them, unless they attack someone on camera, molest a kid on camera, or are caught selling drugs on camera. The doing something wrong should be a simple as they are rude, late often, dont take directions well, they suck at their job. Did something wrong
? Thats why we have rubber room teachers who make 100k per year often to live out the rest of their career in a permanent break room because they are unsafe around kids. Yet they cannot be fired. Firing a teacher takes years, and millions of dollars. Why should firing a teacher be any harder than firing an assistant manager at the local bank branch? Or manager of a resturant, or clerk at the phone company, or deck hand on a fishing boat.

Originally Posted by strick

Our union has even gone so far as willing to help train managers to perform better in this area as it makes helping keep good workers and get rid of bad workers. But this happens in the private sector as well.

Thats all code speak. Not the truth, not the reality. You honesty believe that? The point of the union is to protect bad workers, and to collectively bargain and get maybe three times as much pay as you should, and you have better bennies than the white collar guys, who had to go to college and take 5 years off the labor market (250k) and spent 40-200k on the education.

The union is going to help the managers better manage people. Is this a joke to you? Do you know how much red tape the union puts in the way. Its impossible. In college in management classes, and in theory classes, there is no talk of unions, as its a complete cluster fawk that ruins the entire discussion, and its so much a variable, and so no one would learn anything. No concepts could be learned.

So these people, with their highschool educations, are going to teach the managers, as if these union guys go home and read trade journals, and listen to lectures from professors, or go to seminars for fun in their spare time.

Give me a break.

Originally Posted by strick

Only difference between private and public is this, A private company does not have to answer to the public, however the public sector does.

Well its certainly clear you have been in a union for a long time, your dad and grandpa union guys also? Its as if you live in a bubble, with no access to the outside non union world, and reality.

"THE PUBLIC" is the customer, they can quit using you in most cases at a moments notice, or opt of out contract by moving to new apartment when lease is up, sub letting, cancelling cell phone contract, not returning to your dealership etc. How do you not see this? You have clearly been brainwashed your entire life.

You did not share how public sector answers. I want proof. When you can't be fired, and you often do not have to do anything to the public, just half *** what your boss says, you basically have no responsibilities. You don't have to sit there and take an earful from angry tax payer. You just get up and walk away. You do not have to even help people when you work a help desk. You can talk on the phone to your BF. If you are a cop, you do not have to fill out reports. I have had 2 cops on two occasions refuse to charge someone with a hit and run, they just did not feel like doing it. I had the town next to me send me a letter saying i owed them something like $15 from a ticket, which i paid, and had proof. The letter, had a phone number on it. I called, of course no one was there. I left a message, no return. Fast forward 6 months i get arrested over a 15 ticket fee, that i had proof i paid. I tell the cop, this is BS, i even called, and left multiple messages.

He dead pan looks me right in the face ... with a stern lecturing look "you should not better than that, you have to come down here. Its not our job to return phone calls". YES IT IS. THERE IS A ROOM FULL OF GIRLS full time office staff, and the offical letter had a phone number on it, and the phone line had a message machine.

ALL FAKE.

You want to know why? Because non of them are responsible to anyone, except maybe the chief since he is non union.

Compare that to calling a pizza store, i bet they answer by the third ring with a person on the phone. Call 100 brick and mortar stores on the main drag in your town, someone will answer if its business hours.

Cops/police/city billing. They have a fake like they care line for you to call and leave a real message, that no one listens to, checks, or calls back.

Originally Posted by strick

If a government agency is performing horrible you can have an elected official removed and new one installed that can try and change something.

You are a troll.

Do i have to put up with this because its election season. You can't be serious. Not every agency even has an elected leader. WTF!!!!! How can your solution be so full of fail. Appointees? Czars? Also if i am the one having a problem, and its a real problem and documented, no one person can get a elected official removed, and even if i had the magic vote, i might have to wait 2-8 years for the election that effects him. Why is he not fired the next day!!!!!!!!

Why not have the singular person removed. That is how you fix the problem. See you have a hate for people that accomplish stuff, and undying loyalty to 85 iq dolts and under achievers. How does changing the guy at the big desk, get the guy on the street better service, if the old guy wasn't allowed to make changes, thank you union. So like unions like to do, pass the blame.

Lets put out a new press release, and maybe it will buy us three years, hopefully you can retire before any real changes or improvements are made.

Your post is almost satire. The fact you are probably making in excess of 50, with about 25k in bennies, is a disgrace. You should be working entry level retail, picking fruit, working at a car wash, etc. And should be counting yourself lucky.

Your post was disgusting, contradictory, hate filled, biased drivel.

It does not surprise me you think you are the most important guy, and you have no idea how unions work, yet support them. That is the only thing that makes sense in your post.

People like you are the reasons unions exist, with out them, you could never support a family.

You are a very fortunate man, in many countries, and in this country before the 1930s, you could never be anything. You would always be a ranch hand, or ditch digger, or thats it. Something with no decisions, no logic needed, no problem solving, no communication, no forethought, no reason. Count yourself very lucky you have a union protecting you. I can see why you want to protect the union, with out it, you would be nothing.

The sad part is you would have done more good keeping your mouth shut, and laying low.

So thanks for the advice, ill just sit around waiting for 8 years for the next senate election, and never mind incumbents win 85% of the time, and if the guy i want to fix something does not, i have to wait 8 more years. So basically the entire career length of many union jobs. Thats really really great "accountability".

By the way, they are taking my money that entire time. No accountability.

How would you like it if you had to wait three years to hear a yes no from your phone carrier if you could change planes, or better yet, you were charged for a land line you could not even use or get. And they said next quarter, next quarter, next year etc. For 20 years, all the while taking your money. You can quit. Thats the reality of it.

I cant "quit" paying taxes, or even get people in trouble who do not do the most basic tasks in their overpaid job.