Is this anti-gun non-sense? - Page 2 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

Captain Ray · 05-05-2006, 10:44 AM

I mean.. Is a falling piece of ice.. such as hail.. more dangerous than a falling piece of lead? That just doesn't make any sense...

Raymond

**beardman2** · 05-05-2006, 10:48 AM

I'd have to search. the even have a law about it now. Let me see what I can dig up.

**beardman2** · 05-05-2006, 11:07 AM

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/sp...oldcase15.html

this is the only article I could find about it. The law is named after her and oddly is a stupid law. I never read about it but it replaced more strict laws.

Siobhra · 05-05-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave_in_delaware

I still believe it was punishment for that ugly green dress.

The ugly green dress is the punishment. She was the maid of honor.

Sorry, it's a girl thing. Ask your wife and/or girlfriend about bridesmaid dresses.

Captain Ray · 05-05-2006, 11:25 AM

YIKES!!

Poor Shannon.. but it doesn't pass the smell test does it? I could see a mail box being dented, or sombody looking up at the night sky who go there eye poked out.. but a falling bullet penetrating a human skull? No... the math doesn't support that theory.

Raymond

**Old School** · 05-05-2006, 11:37 AM

From the Myth Busters on this very subject...

Bullets Fired Up
Myth: A bullet fired up can come down and kill you

How high would a bullet fly up?
Adam's idea was to correlate the density of ballistics gel with the density of air (Jamie: "Huh."). Adam figured that if they could see how far a bullet traveled in ballistics gel, they could use the difference in density to calculate the distance it would travel through air. Adam calculated that the ballistics gel is 650x more dense than air, so, according to his theory, if a bullet fired into ballistics gel goes 1ft, it would go 650 ft through air. At least that was the theory: they would have to go to the firing range with some blocks of ballistics gel to see if it would work.

They lined up several blocks of ballistics gel end-on-end at the South San Francisco Police Department firing range (last seen in the Catching a Bullet with Your Teeth myth). They quickly ran into a problem. The 9mm round went through three blocks of ballistics gel for a total distance of about 5ft. The much more powerful .03-06 only went one block in. This wasn't so surprising given the results of the Bulletproof Water myth, though they didn't seem to anticipate the same happening with ballistics gel. The .30-06 rounds travel much faster, so they a greater tendency to break up on impact. Jamie managed to flip a block of ballistics gel with a final shot, finally putting an end to this particular avenue of testing: the ballistics gel was not going to help them figure out how far a bullet would fly up.

Based on the failure of the ballistics gel experiment, they used a computer simulation program to calculate how high the bullets would travel up into the air. The calculations: *.03-6 10,000 ft 58 seconds

9mm 4,000 ft, 37 seconds
Terminal velocity of a falling bullet
Adam built an acrylic wind tunnel (much like the one in the Penny Drop myth). Air was shot up through the bottom and a bullet was dropped into the chamber. The terminal velocity was calculated based on the speed of the air needed to make the bullet stop falling. They figured that the terminal velocity was 100mph (150 ft/s). The wind tunnel also showed that the most stable falling position for the bullets was on their side.

Firing bullets at terminal velocity
The rigged up an air hose to an aluminum pipe to launch the bullets at terminal velocity (150 ft/s). Their first shot put a good dent in the metal door. Their next target would be a pig's head, just as soon as they got the amount of air pressure tuned correctly. A chronograph was used to measure the speed of the bullet and a solenoid valve was attached to the tube to control the air flow.

They fired bullets from the pipe into the pig's head and recorded it all on the high-speed camera. At 166 ft/s, the 9mm bullet bounced right off of the pig's head. The .30-06 bullet did only slightly better, piercing the skin and then bouncing off.

It was looking like this was going to be busted, but, as it turns out, there is an international expert on falling bullets working in nearby Stanford. The expert, Dr. David G Mohler, told them about a case in Menlo Park where a woman sitting in a lawn chair was struck in the leg by a bullet that was fired into the air 1 1/2 miles away during a 4th of July celebration. Mohler recovered the bullet from her leg and the police were able to match the ballistics to a shooter.

Mohler also told them about a case of an elderly man in Alameda who was talking to his wife underneath a plastic corrugated roof in his carport. His eyes rolled up and his wife thought he was having a stroke. When they got to the hospital they found out there was a bullet in his brain and, unfortunately, he died.

"I know for a fact that bullets fired at a distance, returning to Earth, with terminal velocity, have the ability to kill people." - Dr. Mohler

This contradicted their findings so far, so it was back to the drawing board.

Mohave Desert testing
They figured out what was different from their original assumptions: the bullets in Dr. Mohler's cases weren't fired straight up into the air. They were fired at an angle, which meant that they remained spin-stabilized and on a ballistics trajectory.

It was time for them to figure out what would happen with real bullets fired into the air. They went out to the Mohave Desert, where they setup a rig to fire straight up into the air. They planned to fire a bunch of bullets into the air and hopefully find at least one of the bullets where it landed. To maximize their odds, they stationed their crew in bulletproof listening posts.

They first fired bullets straight into the ground as a control:

BB: 3"
9mm: 6"
.30-06: 12"
Jamie fired a clip of 9mm bullets up into the air. 39 seconds later they heard the bullets hit the ground.

Adam: "I'm searching across the desert for a pencil-sized hole"

The first bullet that Adam found went only 2" into the ground and appeared to have hit the ground on it's side. The bullet had traveled 330ft horizontally. Jamie found another bullet hole almost identical to the first.

Jamie then fired the .30-06 rounds. Big problem: after 40 rounds fired into the air, they weren't able to hear any bullets land. The .30-06 rounds travel over twice as high, so they were simply traveling too far for them to find.

Adam brought out plan B: a balloon attached to an instrumented platform that could drop bullets remotely. The platform had a wireless video camera that fed an image of the platform, including the altitude gauge, down to Adam.

The bullets were dropped in a bundle from a height of 400 ft. The .03-06 made a 2" hole. The 9mm made a 2" hole as well, matching up perfectly with the actual 9mm bullet firing.

For the first time ever, they deemed this one busted, plausible, and confirmed. All of their tests, from the pig's head to the 9mm firing to the balloon, showed that a bullet fired perfectly straight up into the air is not lethal. However, it is also very difficult to shoot perfectly straight up into the air and, with the cases cited by Dr. Mohler, they have confirmed that people have died from bullets falling from the sky.

DJDan · 05-05-2006, 04:13 PM

My GF's father has owned a roofing company for 30+ years. He stated that MANY times he was called for a leak he would go into an attic and find a small hole in the roof and a slug on the floor. I'm not sure but he MAY have a jar with all the slugs he's found over the years.

Guys....come on...it's a PROVEN FACT that shooting your gun off in the air can KILL people!!!

Don't do it...simply put..its a RETAAAADED thing to do.

A guy I worked with in the past had a Nissan Murano. On N Y Eve a bullet went through the windshiled of the vehicle and quite far into the dashboard from some jackass "Celebrating" by shooting his gun off in the air.

It is NOT an OK thing to do....and it isnt ANTI-GUN to say so.

Captain Ray · 05-05-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJDan

My GF's father has owned a roofing company for 30+ years. He stated that MANY times he was called for a leak he would go into an attic and find a small hole in the roof and a slug on the floor. I'm not sure but he MAY have a jar with all the slugs he's found over the years.

Guys....come on...it's a PROVEN FACT that shooting your gun off in the air can KILL people!!!

Don't do it...simply put..its a RETAAAADED thing to do.

A guy I worked with in the past had a Nissan Murano. On N Y Eve a bullet went through the windshiled of the vehicle and quite far into the dashboard from some jackass "Celebrating" by shooting his gun off in the air.

It is NOT an OK thing to do....and it isnt ANTI-GUN to say so.

Come on Dan.. that is bull****!! LOL.. Have you ever tried to put a hole in your windshield? It's not as easy as you think. You would shatter the whole thing before you put a hole in it. Sure, if you shoot right at it, but a falling bullet will not do it. As for the roofs.. I don't believe it...

It's not a proven fact.. it's a myth...

Raymond

CyberOtaku · 05-05-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Ray

Come on Dan.. that is bull****!! LOL.. Have you ever tried to put a hole in your windshield? It's not as easy as you think. You would shatter the whole thing before you put a hole in it. Sure, if you shoot right at it, but a falling bullet will not do it. As for the roofs.. I don't believe it...

It's not a proven fact.. it's a myth...

Raymond

It is fact, if the gun is fired at an angle (not straight up) the slug will remain on a ballistic trajectory and has enough velocity to penetrate a human's skull. There are plenty of examples of people being injured or killed by falling slugs here, here, here, or here.

jkswiss · 05-05-2006, 08:59 PM

Well, the doctor on Mythbusters showed an X-ray of the bullet that went throw a mans skull and lodged in his brain. Ended up killing the guy. The bullet went through one of those rippled plastic roofing things people put over their carports and hit him right in the nugget. He collapsed and later died. I don't know what the hell is so hard to buy about this. I don't find it too hard to believe that a bullet fired to the sky can and will fall towards the ground with enough force to kill you. Most people who fire their guns into the air don't do it exactly at 90 degrees. They do so at an angle as someone else mentioned and retain a lot of its energy. The mythbusters could not test a bullet falling at an angle as they could not ever find the bullet afterwards.

05-05-2006, 10:44 AM	#11
Captain Ray XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,693	I mean.. Is a falling piece of ice.. such as hail.. more dangerous than a falling piece of lead? That just doesn't make any sense... Raymond __________________ \"I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom and that of all about me seemed insufficient for that day.\" ~Abraham Lincoln~

05-05-2006, 10:48 AM	#12
beardman2 XDTalk 4K Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,955	I'd have to search. the even have a law about it now. Let me see what I can dig up. __________________ - He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself. ~Thomas Paine I will not be involved with the dreams of angry men. Founding Documents Freedom isn't free: http://www.anysoldier.com

05-05-2006, 11:07 AM	#13
beardman2 XDTalk 4K Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4,955	http://www.azcentral.com/specials/sp...oldcase15.html this is the only article I could find about it. The law is named after her and oddly is a stupid law. I never read about it but it replaced more strict laws. __________________ - He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself. ~Thomas Paine I will not be involved with the dreams of angry men. Founding Documents Freedom isn't free: http://www.anysoldier.com

05-05-2006, 11:25 AM	#15
Captain Ray XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,693	YIKES!! Poor Shannon.. but it doesn't pass the smell test does it? I could see a mail box being dented, or sombody looking up at the night sky who go there eye poked out.. but a falling bullet penetrating a human skull? No... the math doesn't support that theory. Raymond __________________ \"I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom and that of all about me seemed insufficient for that day.\" ~Abraham Lincoln~

05-05-2006, 11:37 AM	#16
Old School XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 7,675	From the Myth Busters on this very subject... Bullets Fired Up Myth: A bullet fired up can come down and kill you How high would a bullet fly up? Adam's idea was to correlate the density of ballistics gel with the density of air (Jamie: "Huh."). Adam figured that if they could see how far a bullet traveled in ballistics gel, they could use the difference in density to calculate the distance it would travel through air. Adam calculated that the ballistics gel is 650x more dense than air, so, according to his theory, if a bullet fired into ballistics gel goes 1ft, it would go 650 ft through air. At least that was the theory: they would have to go to the firing range with some blocks of ballistics gel to see if it would work. They lined up several blocks of ballistics gel end-on-end at the South San Francisco Police Department firing range (last seen in the Catching a Bullet with Your Teeth myth). They quickly ran into a problem. The 9mm round went through three blocks of ballistics gel for a total distance of about 5ft. The much more powerful .03-06 only went one block in. This wasn't so surprising given the results of the Bulletproof Water myth, though they didn't seem to anticipate the same happening with ballistics gel. The .30-06 rounds travel much faster, so they a greater tendency to break up on impact. Jamie managed to flip a block of ballistics gel with a final shot, finally putting an end to this particular avenue of testing: the ballistics gel was not going to help them figure out how far a bullet would fly up. Based on the failure of the ballistics gel experiment, they used a computer simulation program to calculate how high the bullets would travel up into the air. The calculations: .03-6 10,000 ft 58 seconds 9mm 4,000 ft, 37 seconds Terminal velocity of a falling bullet Adam built an acrylic wind tunnel (much like the one in the Penny Drop myth). Air was shot up through the bottom and a bullet was dropped into the chamber. The terminal velocity was calculated based on the speed of the air needed to make the bullet stop falling. They figured that the terminal velocity was 100mph (150 ft/s). The wind tunnel also showed that the most stable falling position for the bullets was on their side. Firing bullets at terminal velocity* The rigged up an air hose to an aluminum pipe to launch the bullets at terminal velocity (150 ft/s). Their first shot put a good dent in the metal door. Their next target would be a pig's head, just as soon as they got the amount of air pressure tuned correctly. A chronograph was used to measure the speed of the bullet and a solenoid valve was attached to the tube to control the air flow. They fired bullets from the pipe into the pig's head and recorded it all on the high-speed camera. At 166 ft/s, the 9mm bullet bounced right off of the pig's head. The .30-06 bullet did only slightly better, piercing the skin and then bouncing off. It was looking like this was going to be busted, but, as it turns out, there is an international expert on falling bullets working in nearby Stanford. The expert, Dr. David G Mohler, told them about a case in Menlo Park where a woman sitting in a lawn chair was struck in the leg by a bullet that was fired into the air 1 1/2 miles away during a 4th of July celebration. Mohler recovered the bullet from her leg and the police were able to match the ballistics to a shooter. Mohler also told them about a case of an elderly man in Alameda who was talking to his wife underneath a plastic corrugated roof in his carport. His eyes rolled up and his wife thought he was having a stroke. When they got to the hospital they found out there was a bullet in his brain and, unfortunately, he died. "I know for a fact that bullets fired at a distance, returning to Earth, with terminal velocity, have the ability to kill people." - Dr. Mohler This contradicted their findings so far, so it was back to the drawing board. Mohave Desert testing They figured out what was different from their original assumptions: the bullets in Dr. Mohler's cases weren't fired straight up into the air. They were fired at an angle, which meant that they remained spin-stabilized and on a ballistics trajectory. It was time for them to figure out what would happen with real bullets fired into the air. They went out to the Mohave Desert, where they setup a rig to fire straight up into the air. They planned to fire a bunch of bullets into the air and hopefully find at least one of the bullets where it landed. To maximize their odds, they stationed their crew in bulletproof listening posts. They first fired bullets straight into the ground as a control: BB: 3" 9mm: 6" .30-06: 12" Jamie fired a clip of 9mm bullets up into the air. 39 seconds later they heard the bullets hit the ground. Adam: "I'm searching across the desert for a pencil-sized hole" The first bullet that Adam found went only 2" into the ground and appeared to have hit the ground on it's side. The bullet had traveled 330ft horizontally. Jamie found another bullet hole almost identical to the first. Jamie then fired the .30-06 rounds. Big problem: after 40 rounds fired into the air, they weren't able to hear any bullets land. The .30-06 rounds travel over twice as high, so they were simply traveling too far for them to find. Adam brought out plan B: a balloon attached to an instrumented platform that could drop bullets remotely. The platform had a wireless video camera that fed an image of the platform, including the altitude gauge, down to Adam. The bullets were dropped in a bundle from a height of 400 ft. The .03-06 made a 2" hole. The 9mm made a 2" hole as well, matching up perfectly with the actual 9mm bullet firing. For the first time ever, they deemed this one busted, plausible, and confirmed. All of their tests, from the pig's head to the 9mm firing to the balloon, showed that a bullet fired perfectly straight up into the air is not lethal. However, it is also very difficult to shoot perfectly straight up into the air and, with the cases cited by Dr. Mohler, they have confirmed that people have died from bullets falling from the sky. __________________ Visit www.pistolgear.com for all of your XD needs!

05-05-2006, 04:13 PM	#17
DJDan XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,338	My GF's father has owned a roofing company for 30+ years. He stated that MANY times he was called for a leak he would go into an attic and find a small hole in the roof and a slug on the floor. I'm not sure but he MAY have a jar with all the slugs he's found over the years. Guys....come on...it's a PROVEN FACT that shooting your gun off in the air can KILL people!!! Don't do it...simply put..its a RETAAAADED thing to do. A guy I worked with in the past had a Nissan Murano. On N Y Eve a bullet went through the windshiled of the vehicle and quite far into the dashboard from some jackass "Celebrating" by shooting his gun off in the air. It is NOT an OK thing to do....and it isnt ANTI-GUN to say so. __________________ I like turtles.

05-05-2006, 08:59 PM	#20
jkswiss XDTalk 1K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,085	Well, the doctor on Mythbusters showed an X-ray of the bullet that went throw a mans skull and lodged in his brain. Ended up killing the guy. The bullet went through one of those rippled plastic roofing things people put over their carports and hit him right in the nugget. He collapsed and later died. I don't know what the hell is so hard to buy about this. I don't find it too hard to believe that a bullet fired to the sky can and will fall towards the ground with enough force to kill you. Most people who fire their guns into the air don't do it exactly at 90 degrees. They do so at an angle as someone else mentioned and retain a lot of its energy. The mythbusters could not test a bullet falling at an angle as they could not ever find the bullet afterwards.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode