Where did the other 79 go?

[Majk]

Originally Posted by 03RangerXLT

While I agree with you in principal, I wonder how many shootouts you have been invovled in. As a police officer, I have trained a lot and am a fairly decent marksman. How will I shoot in a true SHTF situation though may have me placing less shots on target. I hope I never have to find out. But there is no way to simulate the true SHTF situation and the adrenaline that will happen. I can't arm-chair-quarterback what went down because I have never been there. So I am going to not be so judgemental of their performance. On the ther hand, I hope none of the bullets hit anything bad (other than bad guys).

Really, no I have not been in any shoot outs. But I tell you what if it was my job you better bet I'd be regularly shooting my butt off at the range. I can tell you I have had to shoot in a stressful situation. A pit bull charged two of my daughters. I got one round off and hit him in the back half. Try seeing a pit bull charge two little girls that are 6 & 4. True it wasn't shooting back, but I guarantee you if that was my job I'd be practicing every week in those situations. Don't cops go through scenarios, they have video simulators and other training aids. 2.5% accuracy is justifiable because "it's a stressful situation"? Please plenty people do precission work under stressful situations. How about a bomb tech, how about a surgeon doing brain surgery, or a heart transplant. Would we say well it was a pressure situation so it was ok you cut three surrounding arteries. Tell me a guy starts bleeding out and it's not pressure. I don't care if you've trained 10,000 men, that percentage is ridiculous even under stress. You know what percentage would have been acceptable? 50% would have been much better considering it was 80 frickin shots.

In fact I do allot of practicing shooting after running 50 yard sprints, a good way to simulate adrenalin rush and breathing during stress. So yes I do prepare for those type of situations. That's why I dropped that dog for a second and he left. Because I prepare for that, and guess what it's not even my job. I do it so I can be best prepared for any stressful situation. I expect that dedication when it comes to cops and their firearm proficiency. Stress or no stress.

If a cop doesn't get paid to go to the range regularly, suck it up and go and pay for it yourself. The citizens you protect deserve that much dedication with that part of your job. Heck with our taxes here in NE. They should be buying a case of ammo for each officer to practice with. Heck I'd pay for one case if that actually were to use it to get better.

[yocan]

Originally Posted by Majk

Really, no I have not been in any shoot outs. But I tell you what if it was my job you better bet I'd be regularly shooting my butt off at the range. I can tell you I have had to shoot in a stressful situation. A pit bull charged two of my daughters. I got one round off and hit him in the back half. Try seeing a pit bull charge two little girls that are 6 & 4. True it wasn't shooting back, but I guarantee you if that was my job I'd be practicing every week in those situations. Don't cops go through scenarios, they have video simulators and other training aids. 2.5% accuracy is justifiable because "it's a stressful situation"? Please plenty people do precission work under stressful situations. How about a bomb tech, how about a surgeon doing brain surgery, or a heart transplant. Would we say well it was a pressure situation so it was ok you cut three surrounding arteries. Tell me a guy starts bleeding out and it's not pressure. I don't care if you've trained 10,000 men, that percentage is ridiculous even under stress. You know what percentage would have been acceptable? 50% would have been much better considering it was 80 frickin shots.

In fact I do allot of practicing shooting after running 50 yard sprints, a good way to simulate adrenalin rush and breathing during stress. So yes I do prepare for those type of situations. That's why I dropped that dog for a second and he left. Because I prepare for that, and guess what it's not even my job. I do it so I can be best prepared for any stressful situation. I expect that dedication when it comes to cops and their firearm proficiency. Stress or no stress.

If a cop doesn't get paid to go to the range regularly, suck it up and go and pay for it yourself. The citizens you protect deserve that much dedication with that part of your job. Heck with our taxes here in NE. They should be buying a case of ammo for each officer to practice with. Heck I'd pay for one case if that actually were to use it to get better.

I think your being mildly unreasonable when you say 50%. About Marines, I've heard from my friends (ah8076 on here for instance an 0311 squad leader in Fallujah) about hundreds of rounds fired no kills. But thats because of suppressive fire, we fight that way. Much of it was to put rounds downrange to discourage them shooting at us.

In the USA suppressive fire is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE.

Remember the park shooting last week? (maybe two weeks) cop got 20% hit, one hand shooting over cover, fat as heck but he did what was necessary. He barely could get up to shift around the corner for cover. But he hit 3 times while getting shot AT.

These cops sucked horribly. Ok guy not shooting at you 40% I'd say is ok. Getting shot at 20% I'll say is acceptable. Guy running away you know your not in danger, and that 50% might indeed be reasonable.

[FrankC]

Can you imagine what kind of wailing and howling would be taking place in the media if someone used their CCW in defense of their life and fired 80 frikking rounds? They would be arrested as a public menace if nothing else...I can't imagine how ashamed of this their department must be!

[mbpe912]

FRANK, I would think the these round came from more than one Security officer? It is not a US vs. THEM! Get over yourself, not surprised to see you cop bashing. Nothing new for you, When the adrenaline is running accuracy goes down. Let's not forget that court house security is filled with guys who are counting the days they have left before retirement. Heck some are retired and got a job as a security guard at the federal court house part time.

A MAN DIED A MARSHAL WAS INJURED. BAD GUY IS DEAD! COULD THE HIT RATE BEEN HIGHER? YES IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN. THE IMPORTANT THINK IS THIS. BAD GUY DEAD, MARSHAL WILL BE OK NO CIVILAINS HURT!

I doubt the agency is ashamed that they killed the guy. Mad a live long civial servant died? YOU BET!!

Originally Posted by FrankC

Can you imagine what kind of wailing and howling would be taking place in the media if someone used their CCW in defense of their life and fired 80 frikking rounds? They would be arrested as a public menace if nothing else...I can't imagine how ashamed of this their department must be!

[FrankC]

Originally Posted by mbpe912

FRANK, I would think the these round came from more than one Security officer? It is not a US vs. THEM! Get over yourself, not surprised to see you cop bashing. Nothing new for you, When the adrenaline is running accuracy goes down. Let's not forget that court house security is filled with guys who are counting the days they have left before retirement. Heck some are retired and got a job as a security guard at the federal court house part time.

A MAN DIED A MARSHAL WAS INJURED. BAD GUY IS DEAD! COULD THE HIT RATE BEEN HIGHER? YES IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN. THE IMPORTANT THINK IS THIS. BAD GUY DEAD, MARSHAL WILL BE OK NO CIVILAINS HURT!

Point out where I bashed a cop or shut your sniveling hole, the truth hurts I guess huh? That rate of accuracy is so far beyond piss poor I can't imagine how they can face their fellow citizens or officers knowing that they endangered lives in such a wanton fashion. The fact that no bystanders were hit is nothing short of miraculous, you know it and I know it! I am actually amazed that you would defend this display of disregard for public safety...

[akmjolnir]

Now now now... kids.

[james in denver]

Originally Posted by mbpe912

When the adrenaline is running accuracy goes down.

I have a non-combat (i.e. non-shootout) example of that, me.

I went to the range with an XDTalk member CHA-LEE here in Denver. He was nice enough to show me some pointers with the XD.

Anyway, he's over my shoulder and I get nervous. I'm putting shots all over the place on the target at 10 yards.

A few mins later after him talking to me about my grip (etc.), he gets in his own lane and starts practicing. I return to shooting and I start grouping with 3 to 4 inch groups (which is good for me, best I've EVER done has be 2 inch groups at 15 yards a while back).

I felt my heart racing, the noise from all the other shots from others were making me jump, I was nervous and full of adreline. I think mostly I hate to be "watched", like when the spotlight is on me.

Anyway, I was shocked how much I'm improved just with him not "over my shoulder". That always convinced me a "real-world" situation would be hard to handle.

Oh, btw, I'm not sure of who shot when, but I posted the youtube video, and someone commented that you could hear the shotgun. I am pretty sure he was firing back.

James in Denver

[mbpe912]

Frank again here you go with the insult's and nasty words. My main point is that 79 rounds did not come from one Security guard. It is easy to be a range ninja and kill card board. When someone is shooting at you with a shoty it is a different story. It is said that when faced with a crisis officer's become in a tunnel vision type of trance. While we could probably agree that some officer's could use more paper punching time at the range. It doesn't really help in the field as much as you would think. Most ranges freak if you start running for cover drop to the to the floor while firing a weapon!

So until you can pass the state test, strap on the boots and do the job. Stop talking about crap you have no clue about. By the way while you sit hear with the name calling a family who husband/father etc who have 26 yrs to the LVMPD retired. Then took a job as a court security officer for the next 16 until a mad man came in and shot him point blank with a shot gun!

Your Police Vs. CCW comment was not needed nor and apple to apple comparison. As you imply that one person with a CCW would be able to fire 79 rounds by them self! Comparing that to numerous people with High capacity firearms!

Your whole post was inflammatory, nice language.

Originally Posted by FrankC

Point out where I bashed a cop or shut your sniveling hole, the truth hurts I guess huh? That rate of accuracy is so far beyond piss poor I can't imagine how they can face their fellow citizens or officers knowing that they endangered lives in such a wanton fashion. The fact that no bystanders were hit is nothing short of miraculous, you know it and I know it! I am actually amazed that you would defend this display of disregard for public safety...

[SpringerFan]

I have a close friend in the sheriff's department. His viewpoint is that most departments do not give officers ample firearm training "on the clock". Officers are asked to seek range time on their own schedule, cutting into already slim free time. Not at all justifying that hit-to-miss ratio, but I feel like department heads should take note. Maybe some LEOs can speak to this, but if I was out putting my life and others lives on the line, I would make time to train.

[yocan]

Originally Posted by FrankC

Can you imagine what kind of wailing and howling would be taking place in the media if someone used their CCW in defense of their life and fired 80 frikking rounds? They would be arrested as a public menace if nothing else...I can't imagine how ashamed of this their department must be!

actually I think your spot on, I think I read it as 2 officers so thats still 40 a piece.

Originally Posted by mbpe912

FRANK, I would think the these round came from more than one Security officer? It is not a US vs. THEM! Get over yourself, not surprised to see you cop bashing. Nothing new for you, When the adrenaline is running accuracy goes down. Let's not forget that court house security is filled with guys who are counting the days they have left before retirement. Heck some are retired and got a job as a security guard at the federal court house part time.

A MAN DIED A MARSHAL WAS INJURED. BAD GUY IS DEAD! COULD THE HIT RATE BEEN HIGHER? YES IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN. THE IMPORTANT THINK IS THIS. BAD GUY DEAD, MARSHAL WILL BE OK NO CIVILAINS HURT!

I don't think FrankC is mocking the Marshal at all, but the others that failed to properly come to his aid. I would bet you 100 bucks, and I bet frank would as well that the US Marshal was more than profficient, and just got screwed. Your being just as if not more inflammatory than FrankC at this point and I definitely think this is a you started it.

Its not a thread about the hit rate its about 79 poorly fired bullets. I really don't think cops should be allowed to fire for 1 week before qual day because thats closer to reality.

Edit: just read it again sounds like 7 feds chased him and were shooting while running (which I'd bet they know they aren't profficient enough to do) But he wasn't shooting at them unless he turned I wouldn't have fired, its public endangerment.