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CCW Holders Kill 7 Cops and 44 Others...

This is a discussion on CCW Holders Kill 7 Cops and 44 Others... within the XDTalk Chatter Box forums, part of the XD Talk category; Originally Posted by Devil Dawg Not to give any credeance to either side of the OP story as I have no first hand knowledge either ...

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Old 07-21-2009, 06:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Dawg View Post
Not to give any credeance to either side of the OP story as I have no first hand knowledge either way.

But If I found a teacher molesting children he would go to jail for life or wish he had. I have a ZERO tolerence policy in regards to rapist of any sort. There are no acceptable excuses. Rape = Death by Hanging from Testicals in a perfect world. Until we achieve Nirvana I will settle for a well placed pipe to the back of the skull.
But would you ban everyone from being a teacher just because a few of them are scumbags? The argument the OP is trying to make is that since a few CPL holders have committed crimes that everyone should be banned from having a CPL. At least I think that's the OP's intentions, he seems rather fixated on the NRA for some reason.
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:55 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Pips View Post
The argument the OP is trying to make is that since a few CPL holders have committed crimes that everyone should be banned from having a CPL.
Your wrong, simply wrong. I don't care if a citizen wants to get a ccw permit. I just wonder how the NRA is going to counter this study. Just interested in what fellow members might think.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:17 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by LiberalGunOwner View Post
Okay I understand your data. I don't dispute it. So I go back to the original question: tell me how does the NRA counter this report? How do they respond?

I just don't see a lot of advantage in comparing the number of CCW holder commited murders with the number of murders commited by non-CCW holders in the public discourse on firearms.

So fill me in members of NRA. How is the strongest firearm lobbying group going to spin this in the public eye?
No need for spin at all. The numbers posted do an excellent job all by themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen View Post
all right i did some calcs using FBI data:
Table 20 - Crime in the United States 2007

2007 Firearm specific murders: 10086 (do the sum of the firearms column in the above table)
only 2008 prelim numbers are out but they stated a 4.4% decline in murders so you can estimate 2008 Firearm specific murders as: 10086*.956 = 9642.22 firearm murders
4.4% decline is stated in Table 3: Download Spreadsheets

Since study was done from May 07 to April 09 use half of 07s murders + all of 08s + estimate half of 09 using half of 08s murders:
5043 + 9643 + 4821 = 18907 for all firearm murders

so the total of CHL murders in May 07 to April 09 stated in the study divided by all firearm murders in the same timeframe:
51/18907 = .002697% of all firearm murders were CHL
The plain fact is that the report itself was anti-gun propaganda using "spin" on the facts to make CCW holders appear more dangerous than they actually are.

The truth of the matter is that 99.997303% of all firearm murders for the time period specified were apparently done by people that DON'T have a concealed weapons permit.

No spin, just truth.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:38 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by LiberalGunOwner View Post
Your wrong, simply wrong. I don't care if a citizen wants to get a ccw permit. I just wonder how the NRA is going to counter this study. Just interested in what fellow members might think.
There isn't anything to counter.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:45 PM   #45
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:48 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by LiberalGunOwner View Post
is your objection that they are the largest? It is my opinion that the NRA does not represent gun owners well and use fear mongering to enhance the profits of ammunition and firearm companies. Yes it is an assumption, but one that ifind to be well founded.


Well if you base an individuals honesty on the number of questions they answer,... well that your method. The quality of the answer as well as the quality of the question is more important to me.
i will only adress this one response cause i have no objection to the others bases on what you said.

Fear mongering sounds sinister. I think there are hundreds of folks in congress that dont think the second ammendment is in the same league as the others. Not sure how much fear mongering is needed. They basically mail out quotes, statements, the minutes from UN meetings. Read the minutes from a UN meeting. Pretty scary stuff, no interpretation from the NRA, just the leaders words on their own merit, and what they explicitly say they have done, and their objectives for the future.

I think you are making a mistake called post hoc fallacy
Post hoc ergo propter hoc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because (on account) of this", is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) which states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy *** hoc ergo propter hoc, in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.


i have seen no such evidence that correlates with what you suspect. I sense a tinge of the liberal in you comming out that "profits" are bad, or folks are being hoodwinked etc. People like guns in america, they always have, going back to the earliest days. Folks used to spend allot more on weaponry in the past. pre america days a knights armor would cost many years wages, sometimes as much as 6-7 years wages. Guns would cost a years wage. People running out and buying guns, when things are unstable, that happens all over the world, in places the NRA does not broadcast a message. I think that alone shoots a major hole in your conspiracy theory.

I just saw a AK47 documentary/special. The said the sales in AK47s, thier supply, and price is the litmus test in many countries for stability and faith of people in the government.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:58 PM   #47
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The NRA probabaly should not respond to this unless the article gets heavy mainstreme attention. I am sure that many or most all of the cops being shot are do to a repeat offender attempting to get away.



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Old 07-22-2009, 07:26 AM   #48
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Lies, damn lies, and VPC statistics

I would agree that the NRA should just leave this faulty study of news articles alone unless those in the mainstream media pick it up (which, if true to form, will happen).

There are those who would point out the fallacious facts and basis for the study that, though they don't have the national base of the NRA, don't carry the negatives of the organization. It might be best to let others carry this torch unless the VPC "study" is hitting national attention "like wildfire." Here is one such article:
Lies, damn lies, and VPC statistics
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Hmmmmm... have you ever wondered why it is that we judge ourselves by our intentions, but others by their actions?
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