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CCW Holders Kill 7 Cops and 44 Others...

This is a discussion on CCW Holders Kill 7 Cops and 44 Others... within the XDTalk Chatter Box forums, part of the XD Talk category; Originally Posted by LiberalGunOwner Do you think the NRA will handle the issue in a similar way? similar to what? and i am not understanding ...

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Old 07-21-2009, 12:19 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by LiberalGunOwner View Post
Do you think the NRA will handle the issue in a similar way?
similar to what?

and i am not understanding your focus on the NRA, please explain.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:25 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by LiberalGunOwner View Post
Okay I understand your data. I don't dispute it. So I go back to the original question: tell me how does the NRA counter this report? How do they respond?

I just don't see a lot of advantage in comparing the number of CCW holder commited murders with the number of murders commited by non-CCW holders in the public discourse on firearms.

So fill me in members of NRA. How is the strongest firearm lobbying group going to spin this in the public eye?
is your objection that they are the largest?

sorry i am not well versed on your issue with them.

Not sure it needs spin.

How will the NAACP address the disproportionate level of violence of young black men? Why limit your scope to CCW carriers. I mean lots of formerly law abiding citizens commit crimes every day. Every criminal has a first offense. Up to that moment they were clean, i assume, just like you and me. Would you like to draw conclusions from that.

how will you address this issue you want the NRA to spin?

I guess most importantly is why. Just be be clear, are you pro 2nd ammendment rights, at bare minimum as they stand right now. Or do you favor harsher restrictions on what weapons we can buy, and who can carry them and when they can carry them? I ask because your liberal gun owner screen name is scaring me.

How about other rights. How many folks with 1st ammendment rights spark fights, and riots etc. Are there other rights you feel, that if violence, or any crime could possibly be a byproduct, that said right needs to be "defended by organizations", or inspected, limited, etc.

Someone just posted a video a few days ago, about a town near me (20 minutes away) dearborn michigan, where a christian was hit about 100 times by muslims for asking a question when a sign said "have questions"? So from this violence, should we limit the speach of muslims?

I would expect you to answer everyones questions here since you started the post, and you expect some spin, or us to surmise the spin the NRA will project to your post?????? At any rate, if your honest, you will answer every question from every person in this thread.

Last edited by billbrasky; 07-21-2009 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:28 AM   #33
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Really? It couldn't just be that 7 out of the how many permit holders actually went off the deep end? To be honest, I'm actually suprised this number isn't higher.

Oh yes, I'm sure that some good citizen was walking down the street and saw a uniformed officer violently raping a woman and shot him. Because that wouldn't have made the news at all.

I understand that most permit holders are good people....however, no group is %100 in the right all the time.
could be I don't operate in a world of theoreticals, the question is, WHAT IS IT. I've seen more cops beat people unecessarily in my life than I have ccws misbehave, anecdotal at best but anecdotal evidence generally follows social norms. Show me the articles, show me where CCW holders due to CCWs are shooting up people. I feel bad for the cop in the link I posted that got shot in the hand. I really do, but its not a big deal, the guy didn't even try to kill him but mantain control of his own weapon so doesn't follow into your claims.

You make theoretical presuppositions, that is such a logical fallacy we'd send you back to critical thinking 100, not joking. The teacher would ask you to leave. Its about what is when your dealing with the "news" sure Socrates made a world where the philosophers where on top, but that was presented as an ideal, not a current reality. So unless your saying its ideal people are murdering cops, (if so say it, I'll call the asylum) your not following any logic, or social argumentative norms. He also used the cave example but that was using an analogy, not STATING ITS TRUE.

To say your being ridiculous is an understatement, when 100% of the pathetic evidence given doesn't support the side of the person presenting it, generally people use their best evidence, and if thats all you have... grow up.

How many got shot doing illegal no-knock warrants? I don't think those should count, even though I feel bad when the cop that creates the warrant doesn't die (loved the article where the cop that lied on the warrant was the only person that got hit and he died, God protected all the innocent people on both sides of that incident, wish he'd do it more often)

I believe that incident was in the last 2 years and was a CCW holder. So were up to two incidents, the only one I could come up with killed a mugger claiming to serve an illegal warrant without declaring informing the occupants that he had a false warrant. Sorry article I was thinking of (dad's best friend is an anti-death penalty lawyer and this crap is why) FOXNews.com - Railroaded Onto Death Row? - Opinion it happens. a lot I'm praying for Mayes have been for a while, the decision hasn't come back from the appeals court.

Last edited by yocan; 07-21-2009 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:47 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by yocan View Post
could be I don't operate in a world of theoreticals, the question is, WHAT IS IT. I've seen more cops beat people unecessarily in my life than I have ccws misbehave, anecdotal at best but anecdotal evidence generally follows social norms. Show me the articles, show me where CCW holders due to CCWs are shooting up people. I feel bad for the cop in the link I posted that got shot in the hand. I really do, but its not a big deal, the guy didn't even try to kill him but mantain control of his own weapon so doesn't follow into your claims.

You make theoretical presuppositions, that is such a logical fallacy we'd send you back to critical thinking 100, not joking. The teacher would ask you to leave. Its about what is when your dealing with the "news" sure Socrates made a world where the philosophers where on top, but that was presented as an ideal, not a current reality. So unless your saying its ideal people are murdering cops, (if so say it, I'll call the asylum) your not following any logic, or social argumentative norms. He also used the cave example but that was using an analogy, not STATING ITS TRUE.

To say your being ridiculous is an understatement, when 100% of the pathetic evidence given doesn't support the side of the person presenting it, generally people use their best evidence, and if thats all you have... grow up.

How many got shot doing illegal no-knock warrants? I don't think those should count, even though I feel bad when the cop that creates the warrant doesn't die (loved the article where the cop that lied on the warrant was the only person that got hit and he died, God protected all the innocent people on both sides of that incident, wish he'd do it more often)


Wow. By the way....theres a difference between having an intelligent response and trying to sound intelligent. All you did was insult me with thesaurus words. Plus, I don't give a sh*t about Socarates.

"Show me the articles, show me where CCW holders due to CCWs are shooting up people"- ----maybe you should go back to critical reading 100. I said nothing of CCW's being the cause of CCW holders 'shooting people up'. What I said was perhaps someone who holds a permit used a weapon for a reason other than self defense.. How is that for critical thinking?

All in all, keep raving on about how you wish more cops would die, all they do it rape and murder, and lets not forget about how many rights they take away. Too bad you only have until 2012...I'm sure you believe there is a meteor coming.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:31 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by billbrasky View Post
is your objection that they are the largest? It is my opinion that the NRA does not represent gun owners well and use fear mongering to enhance the profits of ammunition and firearm companies. Yes it is an assumption, but one that ifind to be well founded.

sorry i am not well versed on your issue with them. See above

Not sure it needs spin.OK

How will the NAACP address the disproportionate level of violence of young black men? Why limit your scope to CCW carriers. I mean lots of formerly law abiding citizens commit crimes every day. Every criminal has a first offense. Up to that moment they were clean, i assume, just like you and me. Would you like to draw conclusions from that.No I wouldn't. I presented this topic on a firearms forum because the article was specific to CCW permit holders which is a frequent topic here. I am not interested in having discussions with the NAACP.

how will you address this issue you want the NRA to spin? Oh I am not offering a solution, I merely wanted to start a discussion and see if my assumption about the NRA should be modified or thrown out completely.

I guess most importantly is why. Just be be clear, are you pro 2nd ammendment rights, at bare minimum as they stand right now. Yes, I own several firearms and have enjoyed operating and maintaining them. I like machinery in general. Or do you favor harsher restrictions on what weapons we can buy, and who can carry them and when they can carry them? I am fine with gun laws as they are now. I ask because your liberal gun owner screen name is scaring me. No reason to be afraid of me. I have no power over you except what you give me.

How about other rights. How many folks with 1st ammendment rights spark fights, and riots etc. Are there other rights you feel, that if violence, or any crime could possibly be a byproduct, that said right needs to be "defended by organizations", or inspected, limited, etc.I believe in all 10 of the first amendments; Bill of Rights

Someone just posted a video a few days ago, about a town near me (20 minutes away) dearborn michigan, where a christian was hit about 100 times by muslims for asking a question when a sign said "have questions"? So from this violence, should we limit the speach of muslims? No, but some form of socially accepted justice should be executed by criminal courts on the offenders.

I would expect you to answer everyones questions here since you started the post, and you expect some spin, or us to surmise the spin the NRA will project to your post?????? At any rate, if your honest, you will answer every question from every person in this thread.
Well if you base an individuals honesty on the number of questions they answer,... well that your method. The quality of the answer as well as the quality of the question is more important to me.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:36 PM   #36
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My question is so what? There are teachers that molest children. Should we ban anyone from being a teacher?
Not to give any credeance to either side of the OP story as I have no first hand knowledge either way.

But If I found a teacher molesting children he would go to jail for life or wish he had. I have a ZERO tolerence policy in regards to rapist of any sort. There are no acceptable excuses. Rape = Death by Hanging from Testicals in a perfect world. Until we achieve Nirvana I will settle for a well placed pipe to the back of the skull.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:41 PM   #37
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Nirvana Rocks!!!!
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:43 PM   #38
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Not to give any credeance to either side of the OP story as I have no first hand knowledge either way.

But If I found a teacher molesting children he would go to jail for life or wish he had. I have a ZERO tolerence policy in regards to rapist of any sort. There are no acceptable excuses. Rape = Death by Hanging from Testicals in a perfect world. Until we achieve Nirvana I will settle for a well placed pipe to the back of the skull.
I disagree there entirely, I don't think punishment has any real purpose except for rehabilitation. If rehabilitation is impossible, its about elimination just give them the death penalty.

Now with that being said which state did DNA tests and release more from death row than it had executed in the last 20 years? I approve of the death penalty, think it should be used more often, but the way its used is to eliminate people we don't want heard or solve political fiascos, because most people that are guilty plead guilty, and don't get the death penalty but if your innocent obviously you plead not guilty and then if convicted you die. The system sucks and should be rescinded.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:54 PM   #39
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Wow. By the way....theres a difference between having an intelligent response and trying to sound intelligent. All you did was insult me with thesaurus words. Plus, I don't give a sh*t about Socarates. It was to make a point, and you should care its kinda a big deal about how we make points.

"Show me the articles, show me where CCW holders due to CCWs are shooting up people"- ----maybe you should go back to critical reading 100. I said nothing of CCW's being the cause of CCW holders 'shooting people up'. What I said was perhaps someone who holds a permit used a weapon for a reason other than self defense.. How is that for critical thinking? I completely thought that when you posted the article you were making a point and were asking how the NRA would make their rebuttle. I was incorrect you were just throwing stuff up you knew to be crap and demanding the NRA make a statement. I don't understand the point of this thread anymore, not in the least.

All in all, keep raving on about how you wish more cops would die, all they do it rape and murder, and lets not forget about how many rights they take away. Too bad you only have until 2012...I'm sure you believe there is a meteor coming. Meteors hit earth all the time, not even worth thinking about, if were all dead we won't be around to worry about it. Do I believe cops that are intentionally comitting FELONIES in no knock warrants should die? Yes, I believe that they should be held to a much higher level of responsibility than everyone else. Do I believe breaking the 4th amendment is justification for death? absolutely, thats why we have the 2nd. Do I hate cops in general? No, but if my own brother was knocking down your door in the night with no reason and running through your house pointing assault rifles at your 8 year old, would I say throw the switch and end his life for it? Yes. In my mind when you pick up the badge your guaranteeing your service up to and including your life, to serve and protect, if you become the menace, your life will be charged and in being charged fullfill your oath, albeit from you. In case you really didn't understand what I was saying, cop commits felony lies on the warrant and the newbie cop going through the door gets shot, not the perp. Thats a travesty, the innocent fall for the evil's misdeeds.
Happy? Now I'm on the bandwagon, whats your beef with the NRA this thread doesn't make any sense assuming I get the gist (sp) of what your saying. Its like you just want a fight, but you don't have a reason for it.

Last edited by yocan; 07-21-2009 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 07-21-2009, 05:57 PM   #40
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There is a lot of commonality in all of these shootings. That being that a majority of the shooters had previous violations that should have resulted in the revocation of their permits and in some cases the loss of the Right to own firearms.

I have personal knowledge of the Twinsburg, Ohio shooting of a police officer. The shooter had his Concealed Carry permit supended twice previously due to alcohol violations. Unfortunately, his Lawyer managed to talk a Judge into restoring his permit after two prior failures to abide by the Law.

When this shooting happened, the shooter was DRUNK, AGAIN. When the Police Officer tried to handcuff him, he then broke free, and despite being tasered, drew his weapon and executed the Police Officer. Basically, a Cop who was well liked and respected in his community was killed because some idiot Judge let some Lawyer talk him into waiving the requirements of the Concealed Carry Law.

However, that Police Officer also did NOT use established procedure for dealing with a potential Drunk Driver. He did NOT wait for his backup to arrive and failed to frisk his detainee prior to proceeding with handcuffing his detainee. In addition he may have also failed run a vehicle registration check prior to the stop but I will conceed that the possibility exists that the system was "down" at the time of the stop and he may have not had that informations available. In Ohio, vehicles registered to CCW permit holders are "flagged" with that information in the system. While it may sound like I am blaming the Officer for being partially at fault in this shooting I am mainly doing it to remind anyone who reads this why the Police tend to follow procedure and don't show very much "give". The reason why they go by the book is pretty simple, when they don't go by the book they can get killed.

Next time your stopped while carrying and they ask to secure your weapon during the stop, remember what happened in Twinsburg. That Cop who stops you has every right to home at the end of the day just as you do. So, cooperate with them fully and you might learn the Cops are people too and when you treat them well, they usually return the favor.

Now for the bottomline as I see it. There are people out there with guns who should really take up bowling. We have laws in place that would take guns away from a lot of these idiots and I happen to think that those laws should be enforced rigerously. It's pretty obvious from reading the background material on a lot of these shooters that they should have not had their Concealed Carry permit because of prior violations. Because the exisiting Laws are not being enforced, these shootings are now being used against all of us. I think that what the NRA should be doing is asking that the existing requirements for a CCW be strictly enforced and that violators should have their permits rescinded. From my cursory examination of the cases cited I suspect that about 2/3 of the shooters in these cases legally were NOT entitled to their permits. In which case, simple enforcement of existing laws would have resulted in the numbers being used agaist us being much much lower.
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