Mall Shooting Victim was Carrying

[Tercel89]

Originally Posted by jkswiss

This guy seems to be taking it well. I know I wouldn't be so chipper if I was partially paralyzed. However, I'm very glad to see that he has partial use of one leg. There may be hope for him yet. I hope he makes a full recovery.

same here! he is a hero! God be with him . As an officer i say he did great! He was worried about shooting a bystander but he got shot trying to make the right decision. I say he is a hero! The bad guys are always the guys to get off easy with no wounds! that sucks! We (the good guys ) are thinking too much about the public that we cant possibly think straight about shooting right cause we are so concerned about the public and dont want to endanger the public! The bad guy here needs to live in prison!

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by ichy_trigger

I will tell you what...If any of you are in a mall with me or my family in a similar situation, please shoot the maniac in the back of his head. I will mortgage my home to pay your legal fees if it means you save a member of my family.

Some situations may sound iffy but a retard in a shopping mall randomly shooting innocent people should not require a judge and jurry to decide the legality of stopping him. I feel for the guy that was shot, he may not be a well trained CCW holder, maybe it was new to him, maybe hes never had to make a rash decision. Either way, he tried to help and he and his familie have my prayers for doing so. Maybe, even though he was shot, he drew the attention of the gunman long enough that another adult or child had the opportunity to get away.

I'll call him a hero if no one else will, handled properly or not, he gave up himself for the better of another.
Thank you!

Amen. It takes guts to draw at a disadvantage.

Hero's fall sometimes too.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by XD BACKUP GUN

Yes the law in Minnesota is vague at best about defending a 3rd person.

This guy in Washington is a hero, although he handled the situation completely wrong, he should have drawn and fired, or just kept his gun holstered.

You don't know he handled it wrong. How do you know the candy store wasnt behind the BG?

He might have shot and had a squib.

He might have fired and his firing pin didnt hit the primer hard enough.

Maybe he drew and slipped on the ground, then got shot.

Maybe he got hit and then drew, only to get hit again.

[Soysuperhombre]

I carry whenever possible, but I am not a hero. I am only doing it protect myself. Call me a coward but unless I/family member/very close friend was absolutely cornered I am going to draw my weapon and run like hell.
I may have to live with the guilt, but the important thing is I will be alive (and not in prison).

[backstay]

Originally Posted by sjp2452

Can somebody familiar with Washington law weigh in on how he would have done in court?

I'm afraid if the same happened in Minnesota, the guy with the license & gun, if he had shot & killed the maniac, would have had hell to pay in court. To make the claim of self defense, you have to show that you were a reluctant participant, retreat was impossible without further danger, no lesser force would do, and you must reasonably believe that you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily harm. The first two, in this case, would be awfully hard to prove. Essentially you have to avoid the confrontation if at all possible, and if you get into it you have to be able to show that you couldn't avoid the confrontation. Unless the maniac is headed straight for you, there are plenty of ways to duck out of the way and hide.

In a situation like this, the guy didn't have to confront the gunman. He was brave to do so, no doubt. But here in MN, I think he would not have fared well in court, no matter how many lives he saved.

I hate to say it, but I would have serious reservations about getting involved, given the legal situation. Do I choose to face manslaughter charges (with high risk of conviction) for trying to saving lives? Would be easier if I didn't have a wife & kids to think about...

That sucks.

I have a permit to carry in Minnesota, I don't see the law the way you do. I can use deadly force to protect anyone. The shooter doesn't have to be looking my direction. If you think shooting someone who is killing inocent people is manslaughter, then don't carry.
Here is the wording(except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death)

The "or another" sure looks like 3rd person to me

[crofrog]

Another interview.

Mall victim held fire at ‘kid’
‘I would have had to shoot him in the head,’ man says from hospital bed

M. ALEXANDER OTTO; The News Tribune
Published: November 29th, 2005 02:30 AM


Tacoma Mall shooting victim Brendan “Dan” McKown, who has worked as a stand-up comedian, often makes his bedside guests laugh in his room at Tacoma General.


Reliving the Tacoma Mall shooting, Brendan “Dan” McKown feels intense pain in his legs and requests more medication Monday at Tacoma General Hospital.



Brendan “Dan” McKown said Monday that he briefly drew his gun on Tacoma Mall shooting suspect Dominick S. Maldonado, but he’s not sure Maldonado saw it.
He could have shot Maldonado, McKown said, but hesitated.

From his bed in Tacoma General Hospital, McKown told The News Tribune what he saw and did during the Nov. 20 mall shootings.

McKown, 38, said he carried a gun and even trained for situations where he could keep innocent people from getting hurt.

But the situation in the mall was just too surreal to fully comprehend, he said: A young man wearing a baseball cap turned backward strolling through the mall in white tennis shoes.

It looked like he could just as easily have been carrying a guitar, McKown said, instead of a semi-automatic rifle.

“I’m looking at this guy,” McKown said. “He’s a kid. I would have had to shoot him in the head.”

McKown just wasn’t ready for that. It’s not easy to shoot someone in the head, McKown said. McKown also didn’t want to get in the way of the police if they were handling the situation, and he knew he could get in trouble for brandishing a weapon in the mall.

McKown was struck by as many as five bullets, leaving his left leg paralyzed. He has about 10 percent movement in his right leg, said hospital spokesman Todd Kelley. Five other people wounded that day were treated and released from area hospitals.

During an interview Monday, McKown, a standup comic, was in good spirits. He had people gathered around his bed laughing on several occasions.

There was no self-pity or thirst for vengeance in his comments.

He choked up briefly several times in gratitude for the outpouring of love and support from friends, family, and community. He said it’s beyond his words to express his thanks for the fundraisers and other shows of support.

As for Maldonado, McKown said he hopes whatever prompted his actions will be addressed so that he can become a productive member of society, and that he would be willing to help.

McKown said he was on his way from the Excalibur cutlery store in the mall, where he is an assistant manager, to make a deposit at the other end of the mall.

He dropped into the Kits camera shop to say hello to a friend. He briefly stepped out of the store but circled back in because he wanted to greet someone else. He was walking to the front of the store to leave when “all hell broke loose.”

“I heard extremely powerful rifle shots. Boom! Boom! Boom! Very loud. People were diving for cover, running, screaming,” he said.

McKown knows guns, and knew what he heard was a high-caliber, military-style weapon. He even thought two people could be firing.

He walked to the front of the store to see what was going on, and took a defensive posture, crouched to one side in the store’s entrance. He had his gun out, but tucked it back into his belt, under his clothes, after thinking better of it.

Meanwhile, Maldonado walked past the Kits store.

“We had eye-to-eye contact the whole time,” McKown said. He is unsure if Maldonado saw his weapon.

McKown, standing, said to Maldonado, “I think you need to put that gun down, young man.”

McKown’s hand was back near his gun. Maldonado swung his barrel over and opened fired from the hip.

“Every one of his shots got some part of me,” McKown said.

McKown’s legs locked up with the impact of the first rounds and he started to topple over. McKown said Maldonado followed his body as he fell, firing.

The shooter was “expressionless, that was the strange thing. He was definitely cold,” McKown said.

As he felt the bullets enter his body, “I felt like an idiot,” McKown said. “I carried a gun to protect my fellow man,” but it hadn’t worked out that way.

After the firing ended, McKown said his first response was to crawl after Maldonado “so he didn’t get anyone else because I missed him,” but his friends at Kits stopped him.

McKown believes he was shot as he stood just inside the Kits entrance. He also thinks he was shot five times.

The whole encounter took only seconds, McKown said.

McKown lay on the floor for an hour while police negotiated with the suspect, who was holding several people hostage in a nearby store. He thought he was going to bleed to death.

The wounds felt like someone plunged a “flaming, molten fist” into McKown’s guts.

And he didn’t know if the gunman would be back.

Three people tended to him. His two Kits friends and another friend, a man who had come to the mall to see him and to make a purchase at Excalibur.

Roger McKown, Dan’s father, said the man had helped shield two children from Maldonado as he passed, and then rushed across the corridor into the store to help his son.

The McKown family identified the man as an Iraq war veteran. He told the Kits workers how to deal with McKown’s wounds.

Among other things, they used a teddy bear as a sponge to help stanch the flow of blood.

The veteran told Dan McKown that he had seen people hurt worse in the service, and that he was going to make it.

The veteran could not be reached for comment and his identity could not be confirmed Monday night.

Twenty, 30, 40 minutes passed, and McKown didn’t think he was going to make it. One of his Kits friends kept shouting at him not to fall asleep.

“I’m going to bleed to death here,” McKown remembers thinking. “I knew I was dying.”

After an hour, the Kits workers began to fold down the legs of a table to make a stretcher to carry McKown out of the mall, regardless of the risk.

But then the police arrived.

“I felt safe then,” McKown said.

Police took him to an ambulance.

Dan and his family said they heard from police that even before Maldonado met McKown, a person had already pulled a gun on Maldonado outside of the J.C. Penney store, but didn’t fire out of fear of hitting passers-by.

Roger McKown said Maldonado came to the mall with hundreds of rounds of ammo, aiming to take out as many people as possible, but the resistance he met changed his plans.

Tacoma police spokesman Mark Fulghum said investigators interviewed at least two people who were in the mall during the shooting who were carrying handguns. He didn’t know if either of them pointed a gun at Maldonado, he said.

“I’m not going to dispute it, he was there,” Fulghum said of Roger McKown’s account of another person with a gun. “I just can’t say for sure.”Mall victim held fire at ‘kid’
‘I would have had to shoot him in the head,’ man says from hospital bed

M. ALEXANDER OTTO; The News Tribune
Published: November 29th, 2005 02:30 AM


Tacoma Mall shooting victim Brendan “Dan” McKown, who has worked as a stand-up comedian, often makes his bedside guests laugh in his room at Tacoma General.


Reliving the Tacoma Mall shooting, Brendan “Dan” McKown feels intense pain in his legs and requests more medication Monday at Tacoma General Hospital.



Brendan “Dan” McKown said Monday that he briefly drew his gun on Tacoma Mall shooting suspect Dominick S. Maldonado, but he’s not sure Maldonado saw it.
He could have shot Maldonado, McKown said, but hesitated.

From his bed in Tacoma General Hospital, McKown told The News Tribune what he saw and did during the Nov. 20 mall shootings.

McKown, 38, said he carried a gun and even trained for situations where he could keep innocent people from getting hurt.

But the situation in the mall was just too surreal to fully comprehend, he said: A young man wearing a baseball cap turned backward strolling through the mall in white tennis shoes.

It looked like he could just as easily have been carrying a guitar, McKown said, instead of a semi-automatic rifle.

“I’m looking at this guy,” McKown said. “He’s a kid. I would have had to shoot him in the head.”

McKown just wasn’t ready for that. It’s not easy to shoot someone in the head, McKown said. McKown also didn’t want to get in the way of the police if they were handling the situation, and he knew he could get in trouble for brandishing a weapon in the mall.

McKown was struck by as many as five bullets, leaving his left leg paralyzed. He has about 10 percent movement in his right leg, said hospital spokesman Todd Kelley. Five other people wounded that day were treated and released from area hospitals.

During an interview Monday, McKown, a standup comic, was in good spirits. He had people gathered around his bed laughing on several occasions.

There was no self-pity or thirst for vengeance in his comments.

He choked up briefly several times in gratitude for the outpouring of love and support from friends, family, and community. He said it’s beyond his words to express his thanks for the fundraisers and other shows of support.

As for Maldonado, McKown said he hopes whatever prompted his actions will be addressed so that he can become a productive member of society, and that he would be willing to help.

McKown said he was on his way from the Excalibur cutlery store in the mall, where he is an assistant manager, to make a deposit at the other end of the mall.

He dropped into the Kits camera shop to say hello to a friend. He briefly stepped out of the store but circled back in because he wanted to greet someone else. He was walking to the front of the store to leave when “all hell broke loose.”

“I heard extremely powerful rifle shots. Boom! Boom! Boom! Very loud. People were diving for cover, running, screaming,” he said.

McKown knows guns, and knew what he heard was a high-caliber, military-style weapon. He even thought two people could be firing.

He walked to the front of the store to see what was going on, and took a defensive posture, crouched to one side in the store’s entrance. He had his gun out, but tucked it back into his belt, under his clothes, after thinking better of it.

Meanwhile, Maldonado walked past the Kits store.

“We had eye-to-eye contact the whole time,” McKown said. He is unsure if Maldonado saw his weapon.

McKown, standing, said to Maldonado, “I think you need to put that gun down, young man.”

McKown’s hand was back near his gun. Maldonado swung his barrel over and opened fired from the hip.

“Every one of his shots got some part of me,” McKown said.

McKown’s legs locked up with the impact of the first rounds and he started to topple over. McKown said Maldonado followed his body as he fell, firing.

The shooter was “expressionless, that was the strange thing. He was definitely cold,” McKown said.

As he felt the bullets enter his body, “I felt like an idiot,” McKown said. “I carried a gun to protect my fellow man,” but it hadn’t worked out that way.

After the firing ended, McKown said his first response was to crawl after Maldonado “so he didn’t get anyone else because I missed him,” but his friends at Kits stopped him.

McKown believes he was shot as he stood just inside the Kits entrance. He also thinks he was shot five times.

The whole encounter took only seconds, McKown said.

McKown lay on the floor for an hour while police negotiated with the suspect, who was holding several people hostage in a nearby store. He thought he was going to bleed to death.

The wounds felt like someone plunged a “flaming, molten fist” into McKown’s guts.

And he didn’t know if the gunman would be back.

Three people tended to him. His two Kits friends and another friend, a man who had come to the mall to see him and to make a purchase at Excalibur.

Roger McKown, Dan’s father, said the man had helped shield two children from Maldonado as he passed, and then rushed across the corridor into the store to help his son.

The McKown family identified the man as an Iraq war veteran. He told the Kits workers how to deal with McKown’s wounds.

Among other things, they used a teddy bear as a sponge to help stanch the flow of blood.

The veteran told Dan McKown that he had seen people hurt worse in the service, and that he was going to make it.

The veteran could not be reached for comment and his identity could not be confirmed Monday night.

Twenty, 30, 40 minutes passed, and McKown didn’t think he was going to make it. One of his Kits friends kept shouting at him not to fall asleep.

“I’m going to bleed to death here,” McKown remembers thinking. “I knew I was dying.”

After an hour, the Kits workers began to fold down the legs of a table to make a stretcher to carry McKown out of the mall, regardless of the risk.

But then the police arrived.

“I felt safe then,” McKown said.

Police took him to an ambulance.

Dan and his family said they heard from police that even before Maldonado met McKown, a person had already pulled a gun on Maldonado outside of the J.C. Penney store, but didn’t fire out of fear of hitting passers-by.

Roger McKown said Maldonado came to the mall with hundreds of rounds of ammo, aiming to take out as many people as possible, but the resistance he met changed his plans.

Tacoma police spokesman Mark Fulghum said investigators interviewed at least two people who were in the mall during the shooting who were carrying handguns. He didn’t know if either of them pointed a gun at Maldonado, he said.

“I’m not going to dispute it, he was there,” Fulghum said of Roger McKown’s account of another person with a gun. “I just can’t say for sure.”

Mindset, tactics, skill, gear.

He's layed up in a hospital cause he hesitated. He even worried about getting in trouble for brandishing a weapon as a shooter was walking through the mall shooting people.

He didn't have his thoughts on killing someone worked out yet, and for this he paid a high price. It really behooves us all to seriously thinking about taking another life. Even visulize yourself doing it. You have to make sure when the time comes you won't hesitate at all. So what if its a kid, and so what if you have to shoot him in the head. Yeah, it's mentally very challenging to take another humans life. That's why you really need to meditate on the whole issue. If only he would have worked on his mindset more, maybe we would be reading this thread cheering him for his overwhelming victory. Instead of praying for him to get better, and appluding him for doing something.

I don't know what cover or concealment the mall might have offered, but it doesn't sound like he used any of it if it was available. I've often heard repeated "Always cheat, always win" this is a situation what screems for a single well placed shot from concealment. No vocalization, no warning.
If he had used cover perhaps he might still be here, and could have used that extra time to work out his feelings on leathal force, and done what needed to be done.

Even though he may of possed the skill (the marksmanship required to make the shot) and the gear needed to do it (at least he brought a gun). He didn't have the mindset and the tactics needed to make it happen.

We should all take many lessons home from this. I know I have.

Also, please don't feel I'm being overly critical of him. If we don't critque and learn from the actions of others we are bound to repeat there mistakes.

Just some of my mussings on the event's from the documentation avialable to us.

Chris

[Ouch!]

Originally Posted by sjp2452

Can somebody familiar with Washington law weigh in on how he would have done in court?

I'm afraid if the same happened in Minnesota, the guy with the license & gun, if he had shot & killed the maniac, would have had hell to pay in court. To make the claim of self defense, you have to show that you were a reluctant participant, retreat was impossible without further danger, no lesser force would do, and you must reasonably believe that you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily harm. The first two, in this case, would be awfully hard to prove. Essentially you have to avoid the confrontation if at all possible, and if you get into it you have to be able to show that you couldn't avoid the confrontation. Unless the maniac is headed straight for you, there are plenty of ways to duck out of the way and hide.

In a situation like this, the guy didn't have to confront the gunman. He was brave to do so, no doubt. But here in MN, I think he would not have fared well in court, no matter how many lives he saved.

I hate to say it, but I would have serious reservations about getting involved, given the legal situation. Do I choose to face manslaughter charges (with high risk of conviction) for trying to saving lives? Would be easier if I didn't have a wife & kids to think about...

That sucks.

Q.- In what situations is the use of force against another person 'legally justified'?

A.- The law allows the use of appropriate force in FOUR circumstances when facts support its use. They are:

1. Self-defense
2. Defense of another person
3. Prevention of certain crimes
4. In law enforcement.

Deadly force can be used to stop GBI of another, not just in self defense

[crofrog]

[quote="Ouch!"]

Originally Posted by sjp2452

In a situation like this, the guy didn't have to confront the gunman. He was brave to do so, no doubt. But here in MN, I think he would not have fared well in court, no matter how many lives he saved.

I hate to say it, but I would have serious reservations about getting involved, given the legal situation. Do I choose to face manslaughter charges (with high risk of conviction) for trying to saving lives? Would be easier if I didn't have a wife & kids to think about...

That sucks.

If you don't win the gunfight it doesn't matter what the laws in your state are.

Could you live with yourself if you had the ablity to end this entire situation and took no action? I know I couldn't. Right or wrong, legal or illegal. I feel my frist action would have been moving to cover to shoot the ****er with 1 well placed shot to the head if conditions allowed, or if he was moving to fast for a sureshot, a string of shots into the upper torso, to slow him down. Followed by one to the head to make sure.

Please don't read this as empty bravdo. It's just what I've thought and rehearsed mentally thousands of times, long before this even happened. Will never know what I'll do until that day. Hopefully I won't let myself down.

[sturmruger]

Here I am sitting at home all safe as can be, but I hope to God if something like this ever happens when I am around I have the balls to shoot him in the back!!

I guess this answers the preverbial "what to I do when someone starts shooting up the mall" question, or what not to do!


The answer is SHOOT first!. It sounds to me like he gave up the only advantage he had which was suprise!! A handgun against a rifle is a loosing proposition every time. If he would have taken the shot in the back before the guy could start shooting this whole thing might have been differant.

[crofrog]

Originally Posted by sturmruger

I will probably just revert to my training and shoot until I think I stopped him.

Rember you don't rise to the occasion you default to your level of training.

Chris