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Best XDs carry ammo

This is a discussion on Best XDs carry ammo within the XD-S Discussion Room forums, part of the XD Talk category; Originally Posted by Slinger Cuda66- I may be repeating myself, but I question just how much the ammo you mention, or any 230gr.HP ammo, will ...


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Old 08-23-2012, 09:25 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slinger View Post
Cuda66- I may be repeating myself, but I question just how much the ammo you mention, or any 230gr.HP ammo, will expand at XDS velocities, which from my limited chronograph sessions says most of these load are running in the 820 fps - 830 fps velocity range (Cor-Bon might be an exception). I suppose you could say that even if the nose only opened up a little, it would still be better than hardball.

I do agree with you on the wadcutter profile. 38 HPWC handloaded in reverse was tough to beat for self defense back in the day. Of course back then the JHP bullets were pretty much useless as far as expansion goes. Jackets way to thick to allow nose to start to mushroom. Although back in the early 1970s my buddy got drunk one night and got into an arguement with his wife. He had some of the W-W Lubaloy 158 gr LSWC in his .357 Mag. and accidently blew his kneecap off. The bullet stopped down in his calf and really mushroomed nicely as I recall although it did deform somewhat from hitting all that bone.
I did a little testing last year with a 3" barreled Colt New Agent and a 2.5" barreled S&W 325 revolver. I shot 230 HST, Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Ranger-T(+P) and PDX-1, as well as the 185gr Barnes Tac-X (same bullet as DPX) in the original Taurus load. Test medium was soaked and pressed newsprint, calibrated with a .38 wadcutter.

The DPX did exceptionally well, good penetration and good expansion...and if my New Agent would feed them, they would be my choice. The runner up was the Ranger-T +P, with slightly more penetration, but less expansion. The Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, and HST all got acceptible penetration, with decent expansion. The PDX went deep with minimal expansion...slightly over .5 (iirc). Hardball (AE 230) punched through all 18" of medium--as expected.

230's will expand. There just may be a good argument for a 230+P, but one needs to decide if the extra blast and recoil (and, therefore, slowed down follow up shots) is worth the slightly better penetration and expansion.

Nope, no pics, no video. Just me and some quality time, learning for myself.



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Lonestar- Let me throw this in too. After giving it some thought, With the 45acp, given its large initial diameter, as defensive bullets go, even if the 230 grain JHP bullets available in defensive carry ammo only expand the nose minimally, they're still going to do alot of damage and probably more than any of the other lesser cartridges. But, I tend to lean to dropping down to a bit lighter bullet that's travelling faster and hopefully will expand more, which in turn will tear up even more tissue. With these short-barreled guns I think it's even more important. As for penetration, 12" seems to be overkill in the human torso, but it does give you some leeway. The more you ponder the more complex it seems to become which leads to the fact that there is no perfect bullet for self-defense. I guess it's all about compromises.
Yeah, the only thing about water that I don't like is that I think it affords more hydraulic pressure on the nose of the bullet than tissue, causing more expansion. Could be wrong here, though.
It was nice talking with you, Lonestar.
Lighter and faster almost universally penetrates less in the same/similar caliber (all copper bullets being the exception).

As for 12" being overkill...remember that a real life shoot will not look like a silhouette target. Your assailant will not likely oblige you by putting their arms down to the side and squarely presenting their chest to afford you the perfect shot. There's a good chance they will be turned away to you, moste likely with the right arm presented in front of their chest, and standing at the oblique--as happens when they present a weapon. That means all the good targets in that centermass shot we practice for has a 4"+ thick arm in fornt of it that the bullet needs to go through first...and then traverse the length of the chest in order to get to the good stuff.

Measure form the outside of your right bicep to your left nipple...bet it's 12" or better.

Or, you could just ask Agents Grogan and Dove if 12" of penetration is overkill...or, at least, ask their ghosts.


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I enjoy conversations like this as that is where I learn the most sometimes. Although, as I said it was just to name a few. Now in retort I do agree with you about shooting ribs or a half brisket but for me I would rather cook those things than shoot them. But those things I mentioned do affect how the bullet expand, and my point (not explained) was to point out consistency of expansion. Knowing that the denim over water and water were the closest to say gel or flesh. The human body is what 70% water and ballistic gel can be up to 90% so it is far from the best but is cheap and reliable two of my favorite things. Agree? The Ranger SXT is a reissue of the black tallon, and we all can agree on the effectiveness of that round, I hope. As we all know expansion is only half the battle penetration is the other half. And in my opinion that round hits on both... consistently. So in conclusion I do agree with you on the point that water is not the best medium compared to flesh. I appreciate your interest. Thanks
Yeah, the Ranger SXT (Same eXact Talon) was a Black Talon without the Black.

However...performance wise, it's really nothing to shout about. Like all such bullets of it's generation, it fails miserably to expand when it hit barriers, particularly heavy clothing. Sure, if it expands, it has those nasty sharp pieces of jacket...and lots of folks claim it got banned (not true, not true in the slightest--Winchester just took one for the team and stopped selling it under that name). But...it's mythology doesn't stand up to actual fact.

Now--the latest incarnation of the Black Talon/SXT--the Ranger-T--that's all kinds of good stuff. The bullet was redesigned for reliable expansion after barrier penetration, and it kept those sharp parts...it's good to go.

What water gives you is a best case scenario for bullet expansion (it will tell you pretty much nothing about penetration). If a round won't expand when shot into water...odds are, it won't expand in tissue.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:01 AM   #132
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:31 AM   #133
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All of the test mediums are relative, even wet newsprint, with perhaps the gelatin being the best of the bunch. I still like the guy that used a slab of beef ribs plus some denim, a t-shirt, and block of gelatin behind it. That's one of the more unique set-ups I've seen.
Cuda66- I'm fully aware of lighter bullets penetrating less, but they expand more than their heavier counterparts, sometimes expanding much more, thus I believe giving up some penetration is worth the trade-off. To each his own on this point. I fully understand where you're coming from, but I want the best of all worlds......XDS, 230gr. bullet that expands reliably at the short-barreled velocities. From the 230 gr ammo I chrono'd out of the XDS the velocity ran from the high 700fps range to mid 800fps range. In your experience/tests can you say that any of the 230gr JHP ammo will reliably expand in tissue at these velocities? If so, please share, because I can't say with confidence that the 230 grain stuff will do it. Until I can, I prefer to go with a bit lighter bullet.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:43 AM   #134
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I just received the Sept. issue of the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. There's some interesting reading on Page 50. Handgun Stopping Power- Sizing up Your Options. On Page 58 is an article on the Hornady Critical Duty Ammo.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:01 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slinger View Post
All of the test mediums are relative, even wet newsprint, with perhaps the gelatin being the best of the bunch. I still like the guy that used a slab of beef ribs plus some denim, a t-shirt, and block of gelatin behind it. That's one of the more unique set-ups I've seen.
Cuda66- I'm fully aware of lighter bullets penetrating less, but they expand more than their heavier counterparts, sometimes expanding much more, thus I believe giving up some penetration is worth the trade-off. To each his own on this point. I fully understand where you're coming from, but I want the best of all worlds......XDS, 230gr. bullet that expands reliably at the short-barreled velocities. From the 230 gr ammo I chrono'd out of the XDS the velocity ran from the high 700fps range to mid 800fps range. In your experience/tests can you say that any of the 230gr JHP ammo will reliably expand in tissue at these velocities? If so, please share, because I can't say with confidence that the 230 grain stuff will do it. Until I can, I prefer to go with a bit lighter bullet.
Wet newsprint ("Wetpak") was the standard medium prior to the development of ballistics gel...and I just don't have the facilities to have ballistics gel at the proper temperature for gel testing (let alone that I don't have a chrono for pellet calibration of the gel). Most of those videos on utoob? Yeah...that's not properly calibrated ballistics gel, just somebody's basement homebrew that looks neat on camera.

I didn't chrono the loads, but a 2.5" and 3" barrel are both shorter than the 3.5" barrel in the XDs, so it stands to reason they were going slower, and still expanded. So...yeah, I think I can safely say that. I'd say if you want the best of both worlds...go with the 185 Barnes load (CorBon DPX, or also in loads by Black Hills, Wilson, and ASYM among others). The all copper bullet behaves differently than a traditional lead-cored JHP, and is the only lightweight bullet I consider. As I said, they'd be my choice in my 3" New Agent if it fed them reliably. They are considerably more expensive than other bullets, though...usually around $1/round.

And...personally, I think that's a poor trade off. If a round won't penetrate deeply enough to hit vital structure...it doesn't matter how big it expands.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:48 AM   #136
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Cuda66- I really don't feel the 185 gr. (Speer Gold Dot) is a poor trade off. We're at odds on this I guess. When I see proof that a 230 grJHP will expand in tissue at 3" pistol velocities, I'll switch. But, thank you for your opinions!
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:20 PM   #137
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Cuda66- I really don't feel the 185 gr. (Speer Gold Dot) is a poor trade off. We're at odds on this I guess. When I see proof that a 230 grJHP will expand in tissue at 3" pistol velocities, I'll switch. But, thank you for your opinions!
230gr Ranger-T +P out of an XDs into water jugs. It was all I had on the spur of the moment test.

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Old 09-01-2012, 10:37 PM   #138
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Hornady

When I carry I use Hornady Critical Defense in my 45s and Critical Duty in my 40 and 9mm.
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Old 09-01-2012, 11:09 PM   #139
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Mail came in today ...

I'm loaded up 5+1 of HST +P

And 7rds of HST +P in my backup mag ...

Can't beat 50 top notch defense rounds for $30
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Old 09-02-2012, 01:35 AM   #140
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So--how many of those 50 have you test fired to make sure your pistol likes them?
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