Canyon Creek Tungsten 4 oz Rods for XDM

[NDB_MN]

While I don't have Tungsten rods, I did put stainless rods in my XD40 and XDm9. I would imagine Tungsten rods would simply magnify the results I experience with stainless.

In the XD40 I noticed a huge difference in muzzle flip when combining the heavier guide rod with a heavier recoil spring. The .40 is notoriously 'flippy' round and in my stock XD I really did notice it; the guide rod and spring toned it right down.

In the XDm9, I did notice the stainless rod balanced out the gun better, and made follow up shots slightly faster. However, the 9mm in a gun as large as the XDm is already very sedate. I added the rod as much for bling factor as recoil taming However, even with the 9mm I did notice a positive improvement.

BOTTOM LINE: Well worth $20 for a stainless rod in any caliber gun, not so sure I would run out for a $60-$80 Tungsten rod on a 9mm. For a .40//45 that presented some strong recoil characteristics, a Tungsten rod would be the way to go.

[ProMed]

Originally Posted by NDB_MN

While I don't have Tungsten rods, I did put stainless rods in my XD40 and XDm9. I would imagine Tungsten rods would simply magnify the results I experience with stainless.

In the XD40 I noticed a huge difference in muzzle flip when combining the heavier guide rod with a heavier recoil spring.

This is where I am a little confused. Some have said that the stock spring is good to go with the tungsten rod. However, since the tungsten is heavier than the stainless you installed w/ a heavier spring, wouldn't you also want a heavier spring with the tungsten?

If so, which spring should I be looking for?

[sloopy70]

The spring weight doesn't matter... If you want less recoil, you actually want a lighter rated spring...

[sloopy70]

Effects of a lighter spring:

Recoil is transferred to the shooter in a shorter duration of time because the slide is moving at a higher velocity. This is often perceived as less recoil and reduced muzzle flip.

With a lighter spring the shooter also has less force to counteract, or you don’t have to work as hard. This usually reduces muzzle flip.

Less force to counteract reduces the odds of producing a limp wrist style jam.

A lighter spring will result is reduced muzzle dip when the slide closes keeping sights steadier and on target for a faster follow-up shot.

Light springs are particularly helpful to smaller shooters like children, women or anyone else having trouble keeping their wrists locked.


Effects of a Heavier spring:

Recoil is transferred to the shooter over a longer duration of time due to lower slide velocities.

Slower slides equal a longer recovery time for the shooter.

The shooter does more work, as there is more force to counteract. This often causes and increase in muzzle flip.

The chances of a limp wrist style jam are increased, as there is more force working to unlock your wrists.

Increased muzzle dip when the slide closes for a slower follow-up shot.

[xdmikey]

i'm also waiting for the range report.
a few weeks ago i noticed anservice length tungsten guide rod for sale on the forum. i was interested since i have tungsten guide rods on both my tac 45s.
last weekend i got to the range w/my service 40 and found i didn't really need it-at least $80 worth of need it. maybe it was because i was shooting 155 grainers; i usually shoot 180s but i was trying out my lead loads. i just didn't think it was necessary-the rod.
possibly on the xdm, which i have.
i sold my tac 40 to a buddy who wanted a tac 40 and i bought an xdm.
i'll load up some 180s this week and try to add something to this post when i get to the range.

[NDB_MN]

Originally Posted by sloopy70

Effects of a lighter spring:

Recoil is transferred to the shooter in a shorter duration of time because the slide is moving at a higher velocity. This is often perceived as less recoil and reduced muzzle flip.

With a lighter spring the shooter also has less force to counteract, or you don’t have to work as hard. This usually reduces muzzle flip.

Less force to counteract reduces the odds of producing a limp wrist style jam.

A lighter spring will result is reduced muzzle dip when the slide closes keeping sights steadier and on target for a faster follow-up shot.

Light springs are particularly helpful to smaller shooters like children, women or anyone else having trouble keeping their wrists locked.


Effects of a Heavier spring:

Recoil is transferred to the shooter over a longer duration of time due to lower slide velocities.

Slower slides equal a longer recovery time for the shooter.

The shooter does more work, as there is more force to counteract. This often causes and increase in muzzle flip.

The chances of a limp wrist style jam are increased, as there is more force working to unlock your wrists.

Increased muzzle dip when the slide closes for a slower follow-up shot.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I disagree on certain points based on my own testing.

A heavier spring will spread the recoil out over time, but this reduces muzzle flip by eating up more of the recoil's energy in a lateral motion, leaving less energy to cause upward recoil when the slide reaches its rearmost position.

For me, I notice more vertical flip if the slide is allowed to slam back (light spring). Don (of Don's Guide Rods) recommends a 20-22# spring for the XD40, and he's done much more practical testing than I have (as in, hours and hours and hours). I found my 22# spring to tame recoil on the .40 quite well.

As for feeding reliability, this is the other primary reason that springs are adjusted. Competitive shooters who shoot light loads often go with very light springs to ensure that the slide will go all the way back and chamber a round successfully even with light recoil.

Heavier springs help increase reliability of feeding with heavier rounds. For instance, I upgraded my 1911 guide rod spring from 16# to 18.5# when it started hiccuping on some higher power loads. Has worked fine ever since as the heavier spring works to push the rounds into battery more reliably. Wolff springs actually MAKES this recommendation: lighter springs for lighter loads, heavier springs for factory and +P loads.

The .40S&W by nature is a high pressure load. This is one of the reasons for its decent ballistic performance for a round its size. Most will recommend the heavier spring for it.

Now, do you have to change your spring if you change the guide rod? No. In fact, the Tungsten Guide Rod alone may do more than my Stainless Rod + 22# spring. I don't know since I've never tested a tungsten rod. But my bet would be the spring + Tungsten together would be the most noticeable reduction in recoil felt you could achieve.

EDIT: Another clarification, you can't really reduce recoil - a bullet will not release any less energy than it's loaded for no matter what you do to the gun. You can only affect perceived recoil by directing where that energy goes. I'm sure that will vary by shooter and I'm only professing what I've experienced and information I've received from what I consider to be reliable sources (i.e. Wolff Springs and Don's Guide Rods) /end disclaimer

[katokahn99]

Much thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion. Of course, more inputs are always welcome. Sloopy and NDB, I think you are both right.

I've got a good, strong, thumbs parallel combat grip and can keep 20 (180 gr FMJ) rounds in the 6 inch black, firing rapid, from 10 yards with a magazine change. I'd like to get it to inside a 4 inch group, and I feel reducing the perceived recoil/flip will get me there even faster. (I did the same drill on a 8 inch target from 15 this last Saturday and kept all in the black except for one--which was way out--I think it was the 10th round of the first mag {bone-headed anticipation of the mag change}).

xdmikey mentioned he shot off some 155 gr rounds. I too have found the the 155 gr rounds give less perceived recoil than the M9 shooting +P NATO rounds and 180 gr .40 rounds through the XDM; but, I'd like to be able to reduce and control that aggresive flip that the high pressure .40 cal rounds have in standard loads. Here's a couple follow-up questions:

1. Has anyone had any issues with the XDM being too front-heavy with the 4 oz tungsten rod?

2. Is 4 oz of tungsten and a 20# spring going to be overkill?

3. Any opinions on just going with a 22# spring with stock rod?

[J B S]

Results of the 403 turbine Stainless rod I turned in the shop. As stated the rod was turned to have .003 spring clearance of the factory spring. Weight of new rod is 2.1 oz. I found this weight to provide excellent balance with a full mag of 165 gr. 40 cal. hole makers, with just a bit of "nose heavy". I found this weight to be about right for reducing the muzzle flip and rise to a much more manageable level. I have to think that the 4 oz rod will also work very well but I can tell the weight difference and do not wish to lug around more than needed. The speed of my double taps, ( I have many, many hours of required double tap training ) is back to normal. I will be testing 20 and 22 lbs springs with the 2.1 oz rod when they arrive. I also have to disagree with Sloopy70. My experience with higher weight springs has always been to lower felt recoil and muzzle rise and flip, causing the pistol to be more controllable. I normally setup a pistol so that I have the heaviest spring that will still allow the slide to lock to the rear every time. This has always provided the most controllability. This can be tuned to a higher degree if the pistol is always feed the same ammo and bullet weight.

[sloopy70]

Ask one of the Thousands of open class shooters in USPSA that are shooting major power factor loads why they use springs as low as 8-10lbs... It kills recoil... Using a heavier spring WILL help you sort out feeding issues... but until you've shot a tuned pistol with a light spring its hard to tell the difference...

[katokahn99]

Sloopy, does the open class shooter that you asked also used lighter competition loads?