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"Four plus One Syndrome" in XDM 9mm?

This is a discussion on "Four plus One Syndrome" in XDM 9mm? within the XD-M Discussion Room - XD(M) forums, part of the XD Talk category; Originally Posted by caj123 All, I have an XDM 9mm with over 1000 rounds through it. Unfortunately it seems to consistently put the first round ...


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Old 02-23-2009, 06:44 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by caj123 View Post
All,

I have an XDM 9mm with over 1000 rounds through it. Unfortunately it seems to consistently put the first round low and left (off about 3-4 inches even at 10 feet). This is very disappointing since the other rounds are in a tight 1-2 inch group.

Since I am a new pistol shooter, I always want to blame myself. However, I've had other XD and 1911 owners shoot it from a fixed position with the same results.

After a bunch of research I found that it might be a "4+1 syndrome" as exposed by Massad Ayoob in "The Complete Book of Handguns 2009". In this article he states that at least some XDMs (.40 caliber) seem to have this issue which occurs when the first hand-chambered cartridge sends its bullet to a slightly different point then the other automatically chambered rounds. I have the same issue with both magazines and various brands of low cost range ammo.

Have any other XDM owners experienced and/or solved this problem?

Any other suggestions/thoughts are welcome.

Thanks in advance!
There is such a thing as the first shot flier, but I doubt that is what you are seeing. If the first shot is of by 3 or 4 inches at only 10 feet, that translates to 9 to 12 inches of at 10 yards. That is a mile off. I don't think that any method of loading the first round is going to cause that kind of a problem.

Here are a couple of ways to trouble shoot the problem.

1. Have someone you know to be a very good shooter try your gun and see what happens. If they shoot ok, it is something you are doing.

2. Try loading 6 rounds in the magazine, then shoot the first round into the back stop. Then take your finger out of the trigger guard, lower the gun, then raise the gun and shoot your target the way you usually do.

If you usually only allow the trigger to re-set, then shoot the next shot, the trigger pull may seem different between the first shot and the subsequent shots.

Give it a try, and see what happens.
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:20 PM   #12
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De copper your barrel with Barnes CR10 , according to the Bottle instructions. Mop that out good, and oil your barrel and chamber --I prefer FP10 as it goes into the steel. Before you shoot mop out the barrel,chamber, and breachface with lighter fluid and shoot it dry. Bag your first shots to end human error. If that dont work ask for a new barrel.
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:56 PM   #13
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De copper your barrel with Barnes CR10 , according to the Bottle instructions. Mop that out good, and oil your barrel and chamber --I prefer FP10 as it goes into the steel. Before you shoot mop out the barrel,chamber, and breachface with lighter fluid and shoot it dry. Bag your first shots to end human error. If that dont work ask for a new barrel.
While I agree that a dirty gun or a bad barrel can cause accuracy problems, I don't think that's what's happening.

If there is a tight group of 4 shots, and one shot that is off by 3 to 4 inches at 10 feet, that translates to an error of 22.5 to 30 inches at 25 yards.

I really don't think that a dirty gun, or a problem barrel is going to do that.
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:21 PM   #14
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A shot that is off on a "cold" first shot can have alot to do with barrel prep. heat of steel , oil in barrel, heat treat and quality of the steel. Being a few inches off on a cold shot at 10 feet can also be replicated a few inches off at 25 yards. I believe he is talking about a cold shot.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:03 PM   #15
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If a shot is off by 4 inches at 10 feet, it is off by 30 inches at 25 yards, no matter how you look at it.

It just about has to be operator error.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by caj123 View Post
All,

I have an XDM 9mm with over 1000 rounds through it. Unfortunately it seems to consistently put the first round low and left (off about 3-4 inches even at 10 feet). This is very disappointing since the other rounds are in a tight 1-2 inch group.

Since I am a new pistol shooter, I always want to blame myself. However, I've had other XD and 1911 owners shoot it from a fixed position with the same results.

After a bunch of research I found that it might be a "4+1 syndrome" as exposed by Massad Ayoob in "The Complete Book of Handguns 2009". In this article he states that at least some XDMs (.40 caliber) seem to have this issue which occurs when the first hand-chambered cartridge sends its bullet to a slightly different point then the other automatically chambered rounds. I have the same issue with both magazines and various brands of low cost range ammo.

Have any other XDM owners experienced and/or solved this problem?

Any other suggestions/thoughts are welcome.

Thanks in advance!

Hmmm very interesting. If I had to place a bet I would say its your trigger control. I personally have not heard of Massad Ayoob's explanation but he sure knows more then I do. I would try a couple of things to prove this true or false.

First is have someone else shoot the first round or two and then hand you the gun and see if it A) does it for them and B) does it do it for you on your first shot out of that mag that is not the first round chambered.

I would also suggest that you do a lot of dry fire practice and try the "bump" method of dry firing. You will see if you are using proper trigger control.

You can also have someone load your mags and your gun for you with a snap cap or dummy round that the pistol will feed. I have shot some IDPA matches where they did this and it was to simulate a bad round and causing you to clear your weapon. This was excelent training! If you flinch etc with a dead round you are not using proper trigger control.

These are all things I would work on and take the time to really examine your technique prior to blaming the weapon.

Check out this video by Todd Jarret. There used to be some videos on Sig's website that showed different dry fire practice but I can not find them anymore. I will keep looking and try to add to this post.

Hope this helps!

Dave

YouTube - Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:00 AM   #17
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All,

Thanks much for your help and suggestions. I will try some of the things suggested in this thread.

Please let me provide some additional information as well.

Typically I run 250 rounds through the gun each time at the range. Further, I clean the gun extensively after each use. It is never stored in a dirty condition, and the feed ramp and barrel are always shiny clean prior to each range trip.

Please see the images below. The farthest shot on each target is an example of the consistent 1st shot problem. They are typically lower left.

As I said earlier, I have always thought the problem is me, but the issue seems to occur even if the gun is shot from a rest. It is consistent and annoying. Groups of 5 consistently have the first shot low, or low and left. I have even gone so far as to install a laser and shoot it form a fixed position to insure that it is not me.

Therefore, I can only think that it is either an ammo issue, or something else (such as the suggestion earlier in the thread about the need to fully seat bullets against the back of the magazine). I'll be the first to admit I not an ace, but you can see that at least some of my groups (excluding the first round) are tight.

I am open to any suggestions you may have.

Thanks again!








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Old 02-24-2009, 02:13 AM   #18
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I would try one more thing... Get a new return spring. You might try either a Wolf guide rod and spring or Don's guide rod and spring. It seems like the gun is not locking up properly on the first shot as you indicate, but a new spring and guide rod may solve this problem for you. It would also be interesting to ask Springfield about this. It could be something like a small burr or machine mark on the barrel, locking lug, or hood of the pistol doing this. I dont remember how many rounds you have through the gun at this point if indeed you mentioned it, but if the gun is already "shot in" that is, past 500 rounds, then I would think this was unacceptable and Springfield might be a source to consider. Call them. It can't hurt!
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:10 AM   #19
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All,

Further, I clean the gun extensively after each use. It is never stored in a dirty condition, and the feed ramp and barrel are always shiny clean prior to each range trip.
Have you tried "dry cleaning" your barrel prior to use as a previous member suggested? Thye barrel may be "shiny clean" but residual oil in the grooves may be a factor. I know rifle bench-rest shooters who use a volatile cleaner on a swab followed by several dry patches to make sure all oil is out of the grooves prior to 1st shot. These guys are all a bit anal about things like this ... but hey ... who knows ... might be worth a try. ?
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:11 AM   #20
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I can slingshot or cycle the slide very carefully, that does not matter. Making sure the first round out of the mag is all the way back seems to be the best result. I have found that some speed loaders make it easy to leave about a 1/16" (or less) off from the very back.

FWIW, I had a range instructor fire my gun, and it exhibited the same problem with him shooting. Checking the rounds and making sure they were all the way back also "fixed" it for him.
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