Need some shooting advice

[KEVWYO]

When I go shooting I like to reinforce good sight alignment and trigger discipline by taking my time and shooting several mags slowly and concentrating on those things. I also like to work on "real life scenarios" like drawing and shooting until the threat is no longer a threat which for me translates into 4-6 shots as quick as I can. I do this from very short distance to about 10-15 yards. As I get out to 15 yards though my target often looks like it's been hit by a shotgun rather than a pistol. This may not necessarily be bad ... I'm not fully convinced that putting all my rounds in an area covered by my hand is better than the same amount of rounds a little more widely dispersed. However, I seem to really disperse my rounds a little more than what might be effective ... perhaps only 2-3 out of 6 might be effective threat stoppers. Any advice on improving accuracy with rapid fire?

[Kaboom]

Practice.
I wish I had time to do it

[aphexafx]

...and money.

KEVWYO, as to improving your rapid fire accuracy, the best thing you can do if focus on your slow fire accuracy, and like you said, take your time, focus, and pull in those groups. Then keep doing it. You will get faster! Once you are happily maintaining good groups, THEN focus on rapid fire. Always, any time you spend practicing is worth it.

[armyofone25thid]

Ok, here's my question. When you shoot, do you focus on your target, or on your front sight? If you are focusing on your target, that could explain alot. In most studies involving police shootings, they often miss when they focus on the target. Even from as close as 5-8 feet away. BUT when they have focused on their front sight post, they hit the target. And yes, practicing just slow steady shots will improve on your rapid fire drills as well. The biggest part is just practicing and learning to concentrate on your front sight. The more you practice the better you'll become. If you try to rush it and create bad shooting habits, it will be really hard down the road to correct yourself.

[Bycyclist]

Originally Posted by armyofone25thid

Ok, here's my question. When you shoot, do you focus on your target, or on your front sight? If you are focusing on your target, that could explain alot. In most studies involving police shootings, they often miss when they focus on the target. Even from as close as 5-8 feet away. BUT when they have focused on their front sight post, they hit the target. And yes, practicing just slow steady shots will improve on your rapid fire drills as well. The biggest part is just practicing and learning to concentrate on your front sight. The more you practice the better you'll become. If you try to rush it and create bad shooting habits, it will be really hard down the road to correct yourself.

I disagree - front sight vs. target focus is dependent upon situation/distance. Its not an "either" or situation - you need to use both. Learned that both from multiple combat and competitive shooting classes over the past year. The missing from 5-8 ft. is likely due to trigger jerk and conflicting body mechanics (trying to force front sight/weaver stance while you're running - dont' work). My suggestion - get training from both markmanship focused for your 10yds+ distance and point shooting at < 7yds. See my prior posts/class reviews about this.

[KEVWYO]

Originally Posted by armyofone25thid

Ok, here's my question. When you shoot, do you focus on your target, or on your front sight? If you are focusing on your target, that could explain alot. In most studies involving police shootings, they often miss when they focus on the target. Even from as close as 5-8 feet away. BUT when they have focused on their front sight post, they hit the target. And yes, practicing just slow steady shots will improve on your rapid fire drills as well. The biggest part is just practicing and learning to concentrate on your front sight. The more you practice the better you'll become. If you try to rush it and create bad shooting habits, it will be really hard down the road to correct yourself.

At distance ... 10-15 yards I really try to front sight focus. Of course I try to look beyond a little to make sure that I am on target with the front sight. With more rapid fire it becomes much harder (to me anyway) to re-acquire that front sight and get it on target and properly aligned for the next shot. As you all know that's a lot to do in a very short amount of time. Perhaps Kaboom said it succinctly: practice. Bycyclist ... I did read your post regarding point shooting from a week or two ago. Good post but I know very little about point shooting. I would think I may be doing that at the short distance simply because I don't think there would be time to draw and get a good sight picture. For all I know I look Barney Fife when shoot!

[arizona98tj]

Originally Posted by KEVWYO

..... I would think I may be doing that at the short distance simply because I don't think there would be time to draw and get a good sight picture.

I subscribe to always focusing on the front sight. However, you do not have to have as good of a sight picture when you are at close distances. You can have less than perfect setup and still be assured of good hits.

Try this and see what kind of results you get.....

From 3 meters:

1. Focus on the front sight and offset the front sight in the rear sight window by 50%. In other words, align your sights so that your front sight is only taking up either the left or right half of the rear sight. This will cause you to shoot either left or right the target center. Take your time when you do this....slowly squeeze the trigger.....you should get a surprise break (BANG) each time you are squeezing off a round. Shoot several rounds, slowly, keeping your sight "misalignment" the same amount each time. You should get a nice tight group but you won't be centered on the target. (if you don't get a tight group, you have other control issues that need to first be addressed)

2. Now.....repeat step 1 again but this time shoot several rounds with the opposite side of your rear sight. Your hits on target should be to the opposite side but the same distance as step #1.

3. Repeat this again with your front sight too low in the rear sight and also with it aligned too high with the rear sight. When done, you will have 4 distinct groups at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions around target center.

4. Now, back up to 7 meters and repeat these steps again on a new target. Take your time, squeeze off your shots...slowly....getting that surprise break for each shot. Your shots should be notably further off of the center of the target but again grouped together at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 positions.

As you increase the distance between you and the target, your sight picture and alignment must be better if you intend to keep that hand sized spread centered in the thoracic cavity (or the brain). When you rush your shots at distance, you do get the spray and pray pattern with maybe one or two well placed shots....or then again, maybe not. Two well placed shots in center mass will consistently do you more good than a half dozen poorly placed ones, IMHO.

[KEVWYO]

Originally Posted by arizona98tj

I subscribe to always focusing on the front sight. However, you do not have to have as good of a sight picture when you are at close distances. You can have less than perfect setup and still be assured of good hits.

Try this and see what kind of results you get.....

From 3 meters:

1. Focus on the front sight and offset the front sight in the rear sight window by 50%. In other words, align your sights so that your front sight is only taking up either the left or right half of the rear sight. This will cause you to shoot either left or right the target center. Take your time when you do this....slowly squeeze the trigger.....you should get a surprise break (BANG) each time you are squeezing off a round. Shoot several rounds, slowly, keeping your sight "misalignment" the same amount each time. You should get a nice tight group but you won't be centered on the target. (if you don't get a tight group, you have other control issues that need to first be addressed)

2. Now.....repeat step 1 again but this time shoot several rounds with the opposite side of your rear sight. Your hits on target should be to the opposite side but the same distance as step #1.

3. Repeat this again with your front sight too low in the rear sight and also with it aligned too high with the rear sight. When done, you will have 4 distinct groups at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions around target center.

4. Now, back up to 7 meters and repeat these steps again on a new target. Take your time, squeeze off your shots...slowly....getting that surprise break for each shot. Your shots should be notably further off of the center of the target but again grouped together at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 positions.

As you increase the distance between you and the target, your sight picture and alignment must be better if you intend to keep that hand sized spread centered in the thoracic cavity (or the brain). When you rush your shots at distance, you do get the spray and pray pattern with maybe one or two well placed shots....or then again, maybe not. Two well placed shots in center mass will consistently do you more good than a half dozen poorly placed ones, IMHO.

Thanks ... I'll try this after we dry out from this storm we have moving through!

[billbrasky]

Originally Posted by aphexafx

...and money.

KEVWYO, as to improving your rapid fire accuracy, the best thing you can do if focus on your slow fire accuracy, and like you said, take your time, focus, and pull in those groups. Then keep doing it. You will get faster! Once you are happily maintaining good groups, THEN focus on rapid fire. Always, any time you spend practicing is worth it.

yep, thats the way i see it. I am not very good at rapid fire at all, but its a muscle memory thing, where after you imagine it, you do it thousands and thousands of times it becomes intuitive. Think like micheal jordan shooting better free throws then you with his eye closed, or tiger putting with a blind fold. Thats tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of repitition.

Slow at first, always practice good form, do it often. Eventually you'll be an expert someday if you do it enough.

Just look at any job thats motion intense and think how easy they make painting a car look on pimp my ride or on overhaulin on speed. Think how fast a dry wall guy can mud a wall, or a stucco guy. Thats tens of thousands of hours, they are like robots they can do more in a few minutes than you or i can in an hour.

Practice with snap cap against target.

Someone needs to invent a laser barrel insert (like the bore lasers for tuning your sights) and a wall mount target for this very thing. Think laser tag for folks with no muscle memory yet. Wont make me a trick shooter than can shoot the diamnonds and hearts out of the corner of a playing card, but it would help no doubt.

Anyone feel free to take my idea and make it, and put me down for your first model

[selectedmarksman]

They've already done the laser thing, I saw Beam Hit demoed at a gun show probably seven years ago.