Thoughts on the XD 45 Compact ....

[Bree]

Originally Posted by Slimz13

Very Good point. One of the aspects of owning a defense firearm that most people (myself included) seem to be woefully under-educated about is what happens AFTER you drop the BG. Might have to start another thread about this...

You need to search the system and you will find several fairly recent threads about it. And some of them are EXTREMELY educational. There is some incredibly good info available in the archives of this system. It is like a gold mine. All you have to do is to dig.

Welcome to XDTalk!

[Palmguy]

Originally Posted by Bree

Remember in NY you shoot someone and you start with an offense. People are not allowed to shoot other people. If you kill someone, you have a manslaughter offense (felony). People are not allowed to kill other people. You must JUSTIFY your action to remove the status of being an offender or a felon (crime with punishment of one year or more). Burden of proof is on you by a preponderance of the evidence.

Sounds kind of ass backwards to me...what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty...burden of proof is on the prosecution...all that good stuff

I love living in Florida

[XD45Compact_NY]

Originally Posted by Bree

In NY, you are authorized to use only that force necessary to stop the threat up to and including deadly force. Deadly force does not mean force that kills. It means force that is capable of killing. Whether the use of deadly force actually causes death is unknown before you actually use the force and it may be unknown for some time after the use.

The BG runs the risk of dying if he/she presents a threat for which the law provides citizens an affirmative defense for the use of deadly force. Whether death is the result remains to be seen. But you as a citizen do not have the right to seek to kill as your object or intention. You can seek to stop a threat with deadly force. There is a difference between the two states of mind... a small but important difference.

In NY, having killing as your object is not going to get you acquitted, it will more likely get you put in prison. The rules for LEOs are not much different than the rules for ordinary citizens. LEOs have arrest authority and certain rights associated with that. There are some other differences but the justification of self defense follows the same basic rules.

It is a cleverly written dance... the NY Penal Code. It actually has a certain logical beauty to it. Nevertheless, when you follow it from the definitions to proving your self defense justification, the bottom line is you did everything possible to avoid harming anyone while preventing anyone from harm you. And you did only that which was necessary to cause the threat to cease.

Remember in NY you shoot someone and you start with an offense. People are not allowed to shoot other people. If you kill someone, you have a manslaughter offense (felony). People are not allowed to kill other people. You must JUSTIFY your action to remove the status of being an offender or a felon (crime with punishment of one year or more). Burden of proof is on you by a preponderance of the evidence.

As far as your argument about alternatives to stopping the BG... your attorney is 100% correct. If you can do those things, you probably will be required by the court to do them and not kill the BG. The point is that if you can't do those things and a threat justifying the use of deadly force still exists, then you can use it until the threat is stopped or you can escape (retreat). In this case, the BG might die. And if he does and you did all that you could do to prevent it or there was no way out, you will be protected by the law since your affirmative defense will be proven.

That is my understanding of our law and what it entails. Bottom line... get the word "kill" out of your vocabulary relative to your intentions. Substitute the phrase "immediately incapacitate". You will stand a much better chance in court if you have to use deadly force.

What is in your head deep down... unsaid... unshared... is totally your business so long as you keep it there.

Very informative thread!! As a NY'er...it made me realize, I really should brush up on what's LEGAL if something every goes bump in the night. Is there any reference for the in's and out's of the NY red-tape, other than paying for a lawyer consultation to answer my questions?

Thanks again, I learned a lot from your info.

[Bree]

Originally Posted by Palmguy

Sounds kind of ass backwards to me...what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty...burden of proof is on the prosecution...all that good stuff

I love living in Florida

You are innocent until proven guilty in NY. But they can charge you with the offense. As someone pointed out in another thread, once you admit that you shot the BG, you are looking at a manslaughter charge right off the blocks... you did something that the law does not permit. You then say... whoa!! I was defending myself. And they say that is an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE. Prove it by a preponderance of the evidence in court and you can walk free.

If you are lucky the state's attorney won't charge you and the whole thing is forgotten. If you are not lucky, you get to PROVE that you were defending yourself against a threat that justified use of deadly force.

Quite frankly, Florida used to do exactly the same thing. The new Defense of Persons Act changed the structure of the law by providing Castle Doctrine protections. These protections are LIMITED. So read the law carefully (I think it is section 776). I haven't lived in Florida for some time so check it out first hand. I am now re-applying for my Florida CCW which I lost when I moved out of state.

Generally speaking use of deadly force requires you to prove that your use of force was justified and if you can't, you are going to be found guilty of something very bad. In any case, you are chargeable unless something like Defense of Persons Act exempts you.

[1lowlife]

I have an XD9sc that I now carry, also have an XD9 service model.
I'm going to sell or trade my XD9 service.
I thought I would like having them the same caliber but after going to the range, it was kinda boring.
Like shooting the same pistol.
I thought I was going to get an XD40 or 357sig in the service model, to replace the 4 inch, mostly for a house gun.
After reading this and other posts, I'm going for the XD45 compact.

Less recoil, cheaper ammo, cheaper than 357sig for sure.

I truly appreciate this site and all the contributions made by the members.

If I would have researched it more before I bought the XD9 service, it probably would have saved me some trouble.

I want to thank you all...