Is caliber important ?

[mrtoadzwildride]

So you're saying the .223 is as good a deer round as a .308? I have to wave the B.S. Flag! As high and proud as it can be waved! And if it can kill a man as good as a .308, try deer hunting with one. I have laid down a caribou with a .223 and it WAS a solid lung shot, quartering away with the round resting against the opposite shoulder blade. It took at least a minute for the poor critter to realize it was dead. I have also made the same shot with a .308, penetrated both sides and it was lights out! The bigger hole you make combined with a heavier projectile and equal shot placement, the faster your target is incapacitated. HANDS DOWN you CANNOT argue that FACT.

I find it absolutely astonishing that people ignore the laws of physics.


Briefly stated, the three laws are:

1. An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by a net force. (bullet in air)
2. Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration. (bullet grain and velocity) (230gr x 950fps=218,500)(147x975=143,325) See the difference yet?
3. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. (When that force hits, something WILL happen to your assailant)

If I hit you with a framing hammer, it will hurt. If I hit you with a 15lb sledge it will hurt MUCH MUCH more. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction therefore if you are hit in the chest with 230gr and 460ftlbs you will react much differently than 147gr at 310ftlbs. If you don't think 150ftlbs is a lot, grab a torque wrench and torque something to 310. Then try to break it loose with a 12inch breaker bar. Then, try 460ftlbs.

I know, I am confident that my .45 will stop an assailant if well hit. I will bet my life on it. I only hope that your accuracy with your 9mm can compare to mine with a .45 if our lives are ever at risk during the same situation.

By it's nature, a handgun is a poor self defense round. It is inherently hard to shoot, prone to failure and underpowered. However, I cannot reasonably carry a 12ga in my pants. Since I can't, I will carry the biggest gun I can conceal, shoot well and have confidence in. The .45acp fits the bill.

[JoshGrrrr]

Originally Posted by Hemidart

People bag on the 9mm a lot....and mostly by people that have never used a handgun to defend themselves. The 9mm with the proper ammo and proper shot placement will stop a threat just as fast as a 45 acp.

Isn't that true with anything though? A bow can stop someone just as fast as a 45acp with good placement. So can a rock. So can a .22.

I go by the same idea many people in this thread do, use the biggest caliber you can shoot comfortably. I'm fine with my 45. My wife isn't. She carries a .38. Even though the 45 is a more powerful caliber, I'd rather her carry the .38 because I know she's comfortable with it. By comfort I don't just mean when actually firing it. Sometimes it just isn't practical for me to carry my XD, so I carry my P3AT. Comfort can also mean how big and uncomfortable the gun is when carrying it. A gun will do you no good if you leave it at home because it's a pain in the ass to carry.

[XD45inAZ]

Originally Posted by mrtoadzwildride

...I know, I am confident that my .45 will stop an assailant if well hit. I will bet my life on it. I only hope that your accuracy with your 9mm can compare to mine with a .45 if our lives are ever at risk during the same situation...However, I cannot reasonably carry a 12ga in my pants. Since I can't, I will carry the biggest gun I can conceal, shoot well and have confidence in. The .45acp fits the bill.

I agree. I will bet my life that my .45 will stop or deter a possible BG from hurting my family or myself. I believe that a .45 230 grain hollow point placed anywhere on the body will hit the brakes faster than any other hand held concealable hand gun caliber.

[RickInTampa]

Originally Posted by mrtoadzwildride

So you're saying the .223 is as good a deer round as a .308? I have to wave the B.S. Flag! As high and proud as it can be waved! And if it can kill a man as good as a .308, try deer hunting with one. I have laid down a caribou with a .223 and it WAS a solid lung shot, quartering away with the round resting against the opposite shoulder blade. It took at least a minute for the poor critter to realize it was dead. I have also made the same shot with a .308, penetrated both sides and it was lights out! The bigger hole you make combined with a heavier projectile and equal shot placement, the faster your target is incapacitated. HANDS DOWN you CANNOT argue that FACT.

I find it absolutely astonishing that people ignore the laws of physics.


Briefly stated, the three laws are:

1. An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by a net force. (bullet in air)
2. Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration. (bullet grain and velocity) (230gr x 950fps=218,500)(147x975=143,325) See the difference yet?
3. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. (When that force hits, something WILL happen to your assailant)

If I hit you with a framing hammer, it will hurt. If I hit you with a 15lb sledge it will hurt MUCH MUCH more. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction therefore if you are hit in the chest with 230gr and 460ftlbs you will react much differently than 147gr at 310ftlbs. If you don't think 150ftlbs is a lot, grab a torque wrench and torque something to 310. Then try to break it loose with a 12inch breaker bar. Then, try 460ftlbs.

I know, I am confident that my .45 will stop an assailant if well hit. I will bet my life on it. I only hope that your accuracy with your 9mm can compare to mine with a .45 if our lives are ever at risk during the same situation.

By it's nature, a handgun is a poor self defense round. It is inherently hard to shoot, prone to failure and underpowered. However, I cannot reasonably carry a 12ga in my pants. Since I can't, I will carry the biggest gun I can conceal, shoot well and have confidence in. The .45acp fits the bill.

Not sure who your post is directed at, but if it's me...

No. I'm not saying that a .223 is as good a deer round as a .308. I merely stated that:

A. I don't believe our military's "intent" is to wound vs. kill
B. A higher velocity M-16 round causes as much trauma as a lower velocity AK-47 round based on the "study" I watched.

[willbird]

About the only shots delivered with a 9x19 that would equal the 45 acp would be directly to the heart or aorta, or the brain.

If you had equally sized and weighted guns on your table, one 9x19 and one 45, and you were going into a hostile world.....how many people would pick up the 9x19 ??

I think it is great the gun makers have finally found the proper niche for the 9x19, SMALL single stack guns......taking full advantage of the small size of the ctg and making a little gun that has more poop than most 38 special ammo.

Bill

[mrtoadzwildride]

Originally Posted by RickInTampa

Not sure who your post is directed at, but if it's me...

No. I'm not saying that a .223 is as good a deer round as a .308. I merely stated that:

A. I don't believe our military's "intent" is to wound vs. kill
B. A higher velocity M-16 round causes as much trauma as a lower velocity AK-47 round based on the "study" I watched.

Please see previous post. The .223 CANNOT inflict equal trauma to the .308. Hands down, end of story. Well, maybe if the .308 was loaded with subsonic rounds and the .223 was loaded to the brim you might be able to come close at very close range.

As for the deer rifle comment, killing something is killing something. I was merely giving a real life scenario to get the point across. Obviously you are too dense to understand reason. I am done with this thread as it is a lost cause to argue caliber. Even if it is basic physics. Too many people wish to believe that what they Own is the best caliber. I also own 9mm's and a .380 yet, you will never hear me argue that they are equal to a .45. Nor will you hear my say my .22-250 (which is merely a .224cal projectile moving faster than a .223rem) causes more trauma than my .308. If you are honestly that oblivious, I have a bridge......

-out-

[Brickboy240]

Caliber is probably not all that important, but that said...the 9mm or 38 Spl should still be an absolute minimum for defense. Forget about 380s, 32s and 25s. A 22 rimfire barely kills a squirrel unless you hit them right on the first shot. Its too iffy with these smaller calibers...why chance it?

I also have to admit though I love my Hi-Power and P225...the guns that I choose for home defense FIRST are all in the 40SW and 45ACP calibers and probably always will be.

- brickboy240

[rogerxd45]

i know this is off topic but i was brought up on this thread i am under the impression that fmj ammo is more likely to kill a person because of the two holes instead of one and is therefor more humane. a JHP will stop a person faster but unless vitals are hit a fmj will cause the victim to bleed out first which most likely is the most commen way ppl die from guns.
if i had the choice i would grab my 45 but it isnt the best for concealed so 90% of the time i will grab the 40 or 9 i think the 40 is the perfect comprimise between size and stoping power IMO
i would say carry what you shoot best
PLACEMENT IS KEY, A LARGER HOLE IN THE STOMACH ISNT GOING TO DO AS MUCH GOOD AS A 9 TO THE CHEST
but for me i carry the biggest i can accuratly shoot an conceal.
if thats a 22 for you so be it

[rogerxd45]

Originally Posted by mrtoadzwildride

So you're saying the .223 is as good a deer round as a .308? I have to wave the B.S. Flag! As high and proud as it can be waved! And if it can kill a man as good as a .308, try deer hunting with one. I have laid down a caribou with a .223 and it WAS a solid lung shot, quartering away with the round resting against the opposite shoulder blade. It took at least a minute for the poor critter to realize it was dead. I have also made the same shot with a .308, penetrated both sides and it was lights out! The bigger hole you make combined with a heavier projectile and equal shot placement, the faster your target is incapacitated. HANDS DOWN you CANNOT argue that FACT.

I find it absolutely astonishing that people ignore the laws of physics.


Briefly stated, the three laws are:

1. An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by a net force. (bullet in air)
2. Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration. (bullet grain and velocity) (230gr x 950fps=218,500)(147x975=143,325) See the difference yet?
3. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. (When that force hits, something WILL happen to your assailant)

If I hit you with a framing hammer, it will hurt. If I hit you with a 15lb sledge it will hurt MUCH MUCH more. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction therefore if you are hit in the chest with 230gr and 460ftlbs you will react much differently than 147gr at 310ftlbs. If you don't think 150ftlbs is a lot, grab a torque wrench and torque something to 310. Then try to break it loose with a 12inch breaker bar. Then, try 460ftlbs.

I know, I am confident that my .45 will stop an assailant if well hit. I will bet my life on it. I only hope that your accuracy with your 9mm can compare to mine with a .45 if our lives are ever at risk during the same situation.

By it's nature, a handgun is a poor self defense round. It is inherently hard to shoot, prone to failure and underpowered. However, I cannot reasonably carry a 12ga in my pants. Since I can't, I will carry the biggest gun I can conceal, shoot well and have confidence in. The .45acp fits the bill.

ok well
62gr X 3000fps =186,000
230gr x950fps= 218,500
force is foot pounds of energy and a 223 has about 1200 foot pounds and a 45 has about 450 or so
so your mathamatical formula us flawed foot pound equations are far more complicated then you equation
it was a great attempt and i applaud you for trying to show how rounds differ rather then just saying "its just better" im not trying to knock you down i just found your theory flawed
that being said i agree with you on the 45 thats the best choice IMO
however using quality ammo with a quality gun whith proper placement will do the job

[Jettubby]

Next time someone laughs about caliber or says it's not important say this, "Let's have a face off at 7 yards. You can use a .22 pistol and I'll use my .45 XD. What do you say?" Now it won't happen of course but it gets them thinking on what side they'd prefer to be on. If they had to make a choice then I guarantee caliber does matter.

Sure you can do a lot of damage with a .22 but you can do a hell of a lot more with the .45