self defense round - Page 5 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

Frisco Pete · 06-07-2007, 06:52 PM

As a THEORETICAL formula - foot/pounds of energy is a very slippery indicator of bullet performance. As a formula it is heavily biased towards velocity and is rather prejudicial toward heavy slow bullets. It also doesn't take into account bullet diameter or construction, including HOW the bullet transfers its energy into live tissue.
Looking at Remington data you have (in ft/lbs.):
185-gr +P Golden Saber - 534
230-gr Golden Saber - 391
Difference = 143 ft/lbs

Remington 40-gr. Golden 1255 fps. .22 LR ammo - 140 ft/lbs.

Would adding the energy of a .22 LR load to the energy of a 230-gr JHP make it that much more lethal? Could you tell the difference?
What is the past history of .45 230-gr. as to one-stop shots?
Is energy the BEST indicator of how lethal a given handgun load performs?

jtkratzer · 06-07-2007, 08:25 PM

we can all talk about energy and penetration and expansion until the sun dies, the most important thing is shot placement. you put any round(s) in the right place, all modern ammo is going to get the job done.

what do you consider frigid weather where you'd carry FMJs?

the_gunman1 · 06-07-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

we can all talk about energy and penetration and expansion until the sun dies, the most important thing is shot placement. you put any round(s) in the right place, all modern ammo is going to get the job done.

what do you consider frigid weather where you'd carry FMJs?

I agree. Most of us know what's really important. It's just fun to discuss the details.

As for what I consider frigid here. I'd say mid to low 40's for the highs and anything lower. Not arctic for sure but still pretty cold. Cold enough for people to be wearing heavy clothing.

jtkratzer · 06-07-2007, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_gunman1

I agree. Most of us know what's really important. It's just fun to discuss the details.

As for what I consider frigid here. I'd say mid to low 40's for the highs and anything lower. Not arctic for sure but still pretty cold. Cold enough for people to be wearing heavy clothing.

so single digits with 0 - negative wind chills fits in your definition of frigid...

Legend · 06-07-2007, 10:28 PM

Anything below the "feels like" temp of 20 degrees is frigid to me.

Or when dealing with bikers who like to wear 50lbs of leather... FMJs aren't a bad idea then.

the_gunman1 · 06-07-2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

so single digits with 0 - negative wind chills fits in your definition of frigid...

No no, temps of 0 or - are what I'd consider COLDER 'n' HE..!!

jtkratzer · 06-08-2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legend

Anything below the "feels like" temp of 20 degrees is frigid to me.

Or when dealing with bikers who like to wear 50lbs of leather... FMJs aren't a bad idea then.

so, like a shotgun alternating buck shot and slugs, do you alternate hollow points and FMJs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_gunman1

No no, temps of 0 or - are what I'd consider COLDER 'n' HE..!!

don't move to minnesota. the winters there are great, but the numbers will just scare you. the cold there is like the heat in the southwest. dry. but when it's -50, it's still just plain cold.

Legend · 06-08-2007, 08:46 AM

I've never alternated shells... I'll carry a spare mag that is loaded with FMJs though.

With the shotgun, the only time the shells aren't all the same in it, is when I have #2 loaded in the chamber, and the rest being slugs... Why? I don't know... Just seemed like a good idea.

Yeah, I know cold... When it was 30 below here in SD a few times this past year I thought I was dead.

78kitty · 06-08-2007, 11:40 AM

Has anyone tried the Remington Golden Saber's in 230 grain with their XD? I've been researching the best SD rounds also. One report / test I put a lot of stock in is the FBI's testing of various auto pistol cartridges. In .45ACP the 230 grain Golden Sabers fell w/in the recommended penetration (12-18 inches) for both the clothed and bare gelatin. They also expanded well and made the biggest wound volume (6.28 & 6.91 avg for each test).

While most modern ammo in 45 was acceptable, & the Fed HS and Speer GDs did great, the Golden Saber faired the best in most areas. I'm just wondering if anyone else has tried them in their XD's.

wombat13 · 06-08-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 78kitty

Has anyone tried the Remington Golden Saber's in 230 grain with their XD? I've been researching the best SD rounds also. One report / test I put a lot of stock in is the FBI's testing of various auto pistol cartridges.

Do you have a link for the FBI's test results? I'd love to read it.

06-07-2007, 10:28 PM	#45
Legend XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 107	Anything below the "feels like" temp of 20 degrees is frigid to me. Or when dealing with bikers who like to wear 50lbs of leather... FMJs aren't a bad idea then. __________________ _________________ "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him." -- John Stewart Mill (1806-1873) *____________________*

06-08-2007, 08:46 AM	#48
Legend XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 107	I've never alternated shells... I'll carry a spare mag that is loaded with FMJs though. With the shotgun, the only time the shells aren't all the same in it, is when I have #2 loaded in the chamber, and the rest being slugs... Why? I don't know... Just seemed like a good idea. Yeah, I know cold... When it was 30 below here in SD a few times this past year I thought I was dead. __________________ _________________ "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing, which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him." -- John Stewart Mill (1806-1873) *____________________*

06-08-2007, 11:40 AM	#49
78kitty XDTalk Newbie Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 14	230 gr. Golden Saber's Has anyone tried the Remington Golden Saber's in 230 grain with their XD? I've been researching the best SD rounds also. One report / test I put a lot of stock in is the FBI's testing of various auto pistol cartridges. In .45ACP the 230 grain Golden Sabers fell w/in the recommended penetration (12-18 inches) for both the clothed and bare gelatin. They also expanded well and made the biggest wound volume (6.28 & 6.91 avg for each test). While most modern ammo in 45 was acceptable, & the Fed HS and Speer GDs did great, the Golden Saber faired the best in most areas. I'm just wondering if anyone else has tried them in their XD's.

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06-07-2007, 06:52 PM	#41
Frisco Pete XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Utah Posts: 133	As a THEORETICAL formula - foot/pounds of energy is a very slippery indicator of bullet performance. As a formula it is heavily biased towards velocity and is rather prejudicial toward heavy slow bullets. It also doesn't take into account bullet diameter or construction, including HOW the bullet transfers its energy into live tissue. Looking at Remington data you have (in ft/lbs.): 185-gr +P Golden Saber - 534 230-gr Golden Saber - 391 Difference = 143 ft/lbs Remington 40-gr. Golden 1255 fps. .22 LR ammo - 140 ft/lbs. Would adding the energy of a .22 LR load to the energy of a 230-gr JHP make it that much more lethal? Could you tell the difference? What is the past history of .45 230-gr. as to one-stop shots? Is energy the BEST indicator of how lethal a given handgun load performs?

06-07-2007, 08:25 PM	#42
jtkratzer XDTalk 15K Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lancaster Co., PA Posts: 17,560	we can all talk about energy and penetration and expansion until the sun dies, the most important thing is shot placement. you put any round(s) in the right place, all modern ammo is going to get the job done. what do you consider frigid weather where you'd carry FMJs?