Marine being tried in civilian court for battle casualties

[cce1302]

How do these guys think they have jurisdiction over what happens in Fallujah? If a guy lives in Florida, and happens to kill someone in chicago, Florida can't prosecute.

[gsh341]

Originally Posted by cce1302

How do these guys think they have jurisdiction over what happens in Fallujah? If a guy lives in Florida, and happens to kill someone in chicago, Florida can't prosecute.

Good point!

[Radio Relay]

How do these guys think they have jurisdiction over what happens in Fallujah? If a guy lives in Florida, and happens to kill someone in chicago, Florida can't prosecute.

It's the Feds that are going after him, not local or state authorities. The Federal Government had jurisdiction due to this stinking law that was enacted a couple years ago when people had their panties in a bunch over Blackwater.

To quote from the article:

"The Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act law was written in 2000 and amended in 2004 primarily to prosecute civilian contractors who commit crimes while working for the U.S. overseas. One of the authors contends prosecuting former military personnel was "not the motivation."

IMHO The whole thing is a complete liberal crock of crap being pursued by anti-military, and anti-American traitors within our own government. The sole purpose being to undermine morale within the military, and to hamper recruitment!

BTW I'll bet that scumbag Murtha has something to do with this, because of the threat by an unjustly accused Marine Colonel to go after Murtha in civil court.

[SeabeeDiver]

Originally Posted by Radio Relay

BTW I'll bet that scumbag Murtha has something to do with this, because of the threat by an unjustly accused Marine Colonel to go after Murtha in civil court.

DoJ is far from being run by Murtha-sympathizers. If you recall, the administration is still GOP. The individual in question is getting a bit of a screw-job though. The right thing to do would have been to recall him to active duty (and his counsel is provided by the Marine Corps), then eventually adjudicate the case in the manner of the others.

The advantage of the military justice system is that the post-Art 32 hearing actions allow the IO and GCMCA to dispose of the case in a manner other than a GCM. At the present, this guy is guaranteed to face a trial in a federal court, judged by people that have not had the physical and psychological stress of sustained combat placed upon them. That alone was a huge leveler of the playing field when GEN Mattis was I MEF. The same level of evaluation done by GEN Mattis and his SJA will now be done by Susie Homemaker.....that is the part that is a bit scary for the accused.

[Radio Relay]

DoJ is far from being run by Murtha-sympathizers. If you recall, the administration is still GOP.

I hear what you're saying, Bro, but there are indeed anti-Bush/Republican/Military/American people peppered throughout the various departments of government who are nonappointed bureaucrats. Case in point, Valerie Plame/Joe Wilson, CIA bureaucrat, and Ambassador under Clinton. Both still there under Bush. Both doing their best to embarrass and harass.

Another case in point, Marine Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani. The last of the Haditha Marines, whom Murtha avowed on national TV were guilty of cold blooded murder, to have his court marshal dismissed. Col Chessani has also stated that he will persue Murtha in court for slander and other things. Guess what? Chessani is the only Marine to stand court marshal again, because DoD is appealing his dismissal of charges from the first one.

Read here for more info:
Michelle Malkin Haditha Watch: Charges dismissed against Lt. Col. Chessani
Michelle Malkin The fate of Lt. Col. Chessani, continued

Do you think it just might be because of a well place contact of Murtha's within DoD that Col Chessani is being harassed? I don't know about you, but I certainly do think so!

I also think this mindless prosecution of this Marine, who is now a civilian, is more of the same kind of harassment. Marines absolutely hate Murtha for all he has said to hurt the Marine Corps, and the military in general. Knowing the type of person he is, I can definitely see him using contacts within various depts of government to serve his vindictive purposes!!!

[SeabeeDiver]

Well, considering that my wife is a JAG (and has been for over 10 years), I tend to have a slightly different view and greater insight into the process than most people. This is standard action on the part of the prosecution to contest the judge's decision, much like the myriad of defense motions that are filed. To be sure, the prosecution would NOT be doing their job if they just sat around and said "I disagree with what's happening, so I'll let it ride". It's no different than a defense counsel providing a vigorous defense to their client, no matter the quality of scumbag or the heinousness of the crime. It's their job. They are obligated to do it to the best of their abilities. Something important to note here, LTC Chessani was NOT subject to a GCM and is not being subjected to another GCM. Arguments are best made with correct facts.

One thing to notice though, is that the charges were not dismissed by the GCMCA in this case (as they were for most of the E's), but by the judge for UCI. Everyone that has been there knows that **** happens sometimes when the stress level is peaking and bullets are flying, but that also doesn't provide carte blanche to act in whatever manner desired (not saying this is the case here). As easy and wrong as it is for Murtha to do what he has done, the same applies for people on the other side of the fence, wanking about how everything is so wrong. Short of being the IO and the GCMCA, nobody here knows the facts as they have been presented (speaking generically, not specifically in this case) and how they dovetail with ROE, LOAC and the perceptions of threat, as they existed at that precise moment in time for the accused. If it is indeed unwarranted, the case will go away, as it has for the other Marines. If further scrutiny is warranted, it will be provided through the IO's recommendations and the GCMCA's decisions (up through and including the possibility of rejecting a guilty finding from the panel or granting immediate clemency (another standard and automatic defense action following a guilty finding)). In this case, let it ride and see where it takes you. One can be fairly certain though, that if charges were dismissed due to UCI, it'll probably hold up in front of NMCCA. That step is taken pre-trial in only the most extreme and blatant cases.

Now for the other stuff....Joe Wilson was a private citizen starting in 1998; the President was sworn in on Jan 20, 2001. He is not and never was part of ANYTHING within the Bush administration. Presenting contrarian viewpoints is NOT always trying to embarass. Indeed, if one is presenting false information and doesn't like being called on it, the embarrassment is of their own doing; it's time to look inside, rather than point fingers elsewhere. We can debate this all that you want......hope is not an effective means of establishing effective IO and supposition is not a viable mechanism, either. Moreover, Wilson and Plame's answers have been proven correct. I'm not trying to create a debate of Phase 1 actions, but rather point out that alarmism as a means of proving a point that everyone is engaged in a conspiracy theory is simply incorrect. As much as the left has been pansies about executing operations, CENTCOM, OSD and the Joint Staff went out of their way to screw up everything possible from 2003-2007; there wasn't a bad decision that they couldn't navigate their way into. But.....that all means nothing when trying to trot out that Murtha is engaged in a conspiracy against the Marine Corps. See it for what it is.....he's trying to score political points for himself and his party. He thinks he can ride the coattails of this incident in the same way was done for Abu Ghraib. Unfortunately for him, he's too stupid to see the difference, both from an operational/tactical standpoint as well as a political (domestic and international) one. In closing, I believe that LTC Chessani absolutely should pursue action against Murtha; he is not and was not acting in the realm of a public figure, so the latitude that Murtha had to editorialize upon his actions was much more limited. Unfortunately for Murtha, he didn't see that distinction and the absence of an Abu Ghraib-like incident has blown up on him.

[Radio Relay]

Sorry, still disagree. That's all well and good that your wife is a JAG. Chessani's appeal is politically motivated! I also think that Murtha is behind it. And yes, I do expect the that the prosecution should "let it ride", since the whole thing was a load of crap to begin with!

FYI, not trying to be difficult to get along with, but most of your post was indeed well written and thought out, but all the acronyms make it hard to follow.

Joe Wilson was on a "fact finding" mission at the request of the Bush administration. I would say that he was a part of the administration. The entire b.s. with those two was nothing but a failed attempt to embarrass and harass the Bush administration. Pure and simple.

Concerning that horses' ass Murtha... I don't give a damn if it's true or not, vis a vis him having a beef with the Marine Corps. If that fool can ridicule Marines on national TV with unsubstantiated allegations, he deserves to get what he gives.

[SeabeeDiver]

This is getting into tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff, now. If you actually think that Murtha is directing the I MEF SJA and the prosecution, you should stop commenting immediately. It's ludicrous and disrespectful to the Marines involved. Further, in essence, you're expecting a Marine to NOT do their job as they should, by not pursuing the appeal. I'm not sure what your expectations are of Marine officers (I spent enough time eating dirt with them (0302's) when I was with ANGLICO a number of years ago when I was a wee JG and LT), but making a determination that something was "crap" (as defined by people very much on the sidelines) is not how any of us operate and certainly not how we discharge our duties. To expect that is almost borderline insulting to ANY professional in this gun club of ours. The quicker we get that out of the way, the better. Straight out, you're wrong. If you want to keep up the line of discussion and maintain that Murtha is driving this bus, you should consider what you're going to say before you write it; these assertions erode any credibility that you would want lent to your opinions.

Second, Joe Wilson was not sent as an emissary of the government, but rather his wife Valerie. Let's get back to facts, though......was anything that they wrote false? More to the point, was their information twisted, distorted and manipulated to present a false picture before the world (Powell's UN presentation)? Did much of the IC object to the presentation of that "evidence" because it was known false? Call it what you will, but when the government presents outright lies as reasons to go to war, it deserves to be brought to the public eye. It's difficult to see why it was not presented as a fact that Iraq was a long-term threat to its neighbors and would EVENTUALLY reclaim WMD capabilities. That was accepted truth throughout the world. That said, this isn't a discussion of reasons for OIF; suffice it to say that using Wilson/Plame as a reason for issues related to the prosecution's appeal of the dismissal of charges is spurious at best and quite bewildering to most. Most intelligent folks will fail to see the causal relationship that you seem to believe exists. I can keep going with this all day long, if you want......this is an easy issue to defend.

I will agree with you, once again, on Murtha and what could wind up happening with him. He was incredibly out of line with his comments and may wind up facing a financial penalty as a result. Sucks to be him if it happens.

[Radio Relay]

Yeah, tinfoil hat....

[Boanerge]

Originally Posted by Radio Relay

Ex-Marine Questions Prosecution in Civilian Court

Sunday , August 17, 2008


IRVINE, Calif. —
A former Marine sergeant facing the first federal civilian prosecution of a military member accused of a war crime says there is much more at stake than his claim of innocence on charges that he killed unarmed detainees in Fallujah, Iraq. In the view of Jose Luis Nazario Jr., U.S. troops may begin to question whether they will be prosecuted by civilians for doing what their military superiors taught them to do in battle.
Nazario is the first military service member who has completed his duty to be brought to trial under a law that allows the government to prosecute defense contractors, military dependents and those no longer in the military who commit crimes outside the United States.
"They train us, and they expect us to rely back on that training. Then when we use that training, they prosecute us for it?" Nazario said during an interview Saturday with The Associated Press.
"I didn't do anything wrong. I don't think I should be the first tried like this," said Nazario, whose trial begins Tuesday in Riverside, east of Los Angeles.
If Nazario, 28, is convicted of voluntary manslaughter, some predict damaging consequences on the battlefield.
"This boils down to one thing in my mind: Are we going to allow civilian juries to Monday-morning-quarterback military decisions?" said Nazario's attorney, Kevin McDermott.

The rest of the story is here: FOXNews.com - Ex-Marine Questions Prosecution in Civilian Court - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum

I thikn this is the U.S state dept. trying to show the Iraq Government that the U.S. will prosecute it's own military to show the Iraq's there is no need to allow the Iraq's to prosecute the U.S military for alleged war crimes.