New Subcompact Rifle...

[psc]

Army 'Excited' About New Subcompact Gun

October 16, 2009
Military.com|by Christian Lowe



Despite initial industry suspicion that the Army would let the effort die a slow death, the service is moving forward with the development of a compact weapon that shoots like a rifle but slings like a sub gun.
According to the Army official in charge of fielding new weapons for the service, the search for a so-called "subcompact individual weapon system" is moving ahead in earnest. In May, the Army sponsored a user evaluation where Soldiers put subcompact weapons through their paces to see if the idea would stick.
And at least for the brass running the show, it did.
"I'm excited about the subcompact," said Col. Doug Tamilio, the Army program manager for Soldier weapons, during an Oct. 15 interview with Military.com. "There are a lot of Soldiers today who do not need to carry either a carbine or an M-16, but yet a pistol may just not be enough."
Read more on the Army’s search for a new rifle.
The Army's preliminary evaluation tested a host of weapons in different scenarios and conditions, their accuracy at different ranges and how well Joes could control the small weapons with a big punch while firing.
"We tested how Soldiers worked with those weapons and what seems to work form, fit and function better than others," Tamilio explained. "We got some great data on that."
Though Tamilio wouldn't say who participated in the evaluation, an industry source said that about six manufacturers may have submitted weapons for the shoot.
The search for a weapon that delivers a Mike Tyson punch in Sugar Ray Leonard package was included in an Army solicitation last year for a possible alternative to the M-4 carbine. The solicitation left open size, weight, barrel length and caliber, but many companies had already developed so-called personal defense weapons, or PDWs, for contract security teams and other covert operators.
"We found out a lot of good things," Tamilio said of the early summer evaluation. "There are a lot of good weapons out there [and] Soldiers can hit accurately, hit very well with all of the weapons that were out there."
"So now it comes down to what are the best parts of all of these?"
Officials with the Army's soldier weapons office said the Army Infantry School is working on final requirements for the subcompact weapon, and while it may be two years before a Joe commanding a supply convoy gets to sling one of these bantam bad boys, Army officials are moving with deliberate speed to get the program in gear.
"We got a lot of great data," Tamilio added. "So, now as the Infantry School writes the requirement they'll be more informed on what they're looking for."
Only a couple months before the Army's subcompact evaluation, industry insiders were grumbling that the Army would likely lose interest in the initiative since it was part of a much larger, more expensive push to look at alternatives to the M-4 carbine.
According to Tamilio, the so-called "Improved Carbine" program is stuck in bureaucratic and budgetary limbo. Top Army generals are still bandying about the requirements developed by the Infantry School, but Tamilio expects those to be resolved "very shortly." Then it goes to Pentagon evaluators for their chop before the Army starts to look at competitors' guns.
"There are a couple comments that they are trying to adjudicate as we speak," Tamilio said of the Army's deliberations.
"To some people [the issues] are fundamental, to other people they're on the margins - it depends on who you talk to," he added, declining to be more specific.
The service is also waiting for the final version of the fiscal 2010 Pentagon budget to be signed by the president, releasing nearly $10 million to start the program.
"At the end of that process, I'll be in a good position to start executing the program," Tamilio said. "Once we get that [Pentagon] approved requirement ... we'll be moving along at our original timeline. We're excited about that still."
Army officials have said that if all the benchmarks are met, Joes could potentially see a new rifle or redesigned M-4 by 2012.

[xdfire]

Anybody gotten anyword on what the contenders are? MP7, P90, MP5, Kriss?

[Cason]

I thought I heard something about an AR SBR being in the run-up?

[chupacabrachus]

Originally Posted by Cason

I thought I heard something about an AR SBR being in the run-up?

Likely.

[Cuda66]

Originally Posted by Cason

I thought I heard something about an AR SBR being in the run-up?

Heck, a true M4 barrel is SBR length (14.5")...

But, yes, there's been a few PDW-type AR's with 10.5" barrels (rumor has it being called the M6; the Navy calls it a Mk-something) in the pipeline...

[WmBSmithII]

^^Navy/Coast Guard calls them mk-18s 10.3"

[akmjolnir]

There goes "..every Marine is a Rifleman..."

Actually, before I get flamed, just how accurate, at say 100, 200, 500yrds. is a 10.3" barreled SBR? I'm sure it's the cat's pajamas while running through a ship, but I can't see it doing much on a hillside in Asscrackistan.

[sneedb82]

Originally Posted by akmjolnir

There goes "..every Marine is a Rifleman..."

Actually, before I get flamed, just how accurate, at say 100, 200, 500yrds. is a 10.3" barreled SBR? I'm sure it's the cat's pajamas while running through a ship, but I can't see it doing much on a hillside in Asscrackistan.

I don't know much about the .223's accuracy (5.56 NATO) in a barrel that short, however, in 6.8, the bullet's performance is better in a shorter barrel, ie. less than 14.5". In fact, there's quite a bit of performance retained in a PSD LWRC which is an 8" barrel

Effective range is still out to 200 yards in the 8" barrel, using 110gr bullets.

[yocan]

Originally Posted by sneedb82

I don't know much about the .223's accuracy (5.56 NATO) in a barrel that short, however, in 6.8, the bullet's performance is better in a shorter barrel, ie. less than 14.5". In fact, there's quite a bit of performance retained in a PSD LWRC which is an 8" barrel

Effective range is still out to 200 yards in the 8" barrel, using 110gr bullets.

aks effective range is 350m how is this supposed to make me feel good? now a 6.5 and a 10" barrel

[norinco982lover]

I'm going to go ahead and suggest the 5.7 round for this. I mean hey..the ammo is lightweight...you can carry more rounds..forget accuracy just spray and pray.

I would seriously consider the 5.7 in a P90 configuration instead of a SB AR.

~Norinco