XD trigger pull validity - USPSA

[sloopy70]

I've been lead to believe that the XD is Single Action Only... and from the exploded diagrams and things like that, thats what I'm thinkin it is. But the Rule in the USPSA Rulebook about production division says that in production division "Single Action Only Handguns are prohibited" ... But on the approved handgun list it is approved... I'm confused... is it because the action on an xd isn't a typical "Single action" ie. (USA) ultra safety assurance action???

[Loves2Shoot]

BOTH USPSA and IPSC agree that it is not a true single action. Pulling the trigger does move the striker rearward as designed.

[sloopy70]

really? i thought it just released it... so does it move it like a fraction of an inch or something???

[manic mechanic]

If you rest your thumb on the status indicator while dry firing you can feel it move back about a 64th of an inch or so.

[sloopy70]

alrighty... i figured it was only a TINY bit of backward movement.... so... its like a hybrid SAO? lol

[Loves2Shoot]

Or a more efficient striker fired gun...

[mcb]

JMHO, as a mechanical engineer, but that striker does not and cannot move backwards an appreciable when the trigger is pulled. The sear pivots on a pin and only rotates down to release the sear so the motion backward can only be a few thousands of an inch at most. This does not make it a double action no matter how much you try. I would argue that even a Glock is not a double action since you cannot repeatedly strike the same cartridge without cycling the slide. IMHO to be truly double action it should be able to perform multiple strikes on a bad cartridge/empty chamber without cycling the slide. You can't do the with a Glock or and XD.

I believe that although the XD is mechanically most closely compared to a single action handgun the trigger is setup to give the long pull of a DOA gun and thus was allowed into production. Many argue the XD probably should not have been allowed into the production division and with many of the trigger jobs that remove nearly all of that long pre-travel I would have to agree with them. I modified XD trigger is not in the spirit of the production division even if its legal in the division.

Rambling
mcb

[Loves2Shoot]

I can measure it, take the slide of and pull the trigger, it should be about .0330" in further back, include the angle on the striker and the strike moves more than that distance. But since you are a mechanical engineer you probably already knew that.

Keeping Glocks Production legal opens a BIG door. CZ's and Sigs with good triggers are pretty nice. I hear a lot about the spirit of the division stuff everywhere EXCEPT the rule book. If it was important, wouldn't they have mentioned something about it the rulebook? IDPA does that

Ps. If we are getting better guns to the general public, that should be a good thing IMO. I do many more trigger jobs on guns for the average shooter than I do competition guns.

[mcb]

Originally Posted by Loves2Shoot

I can measure it, take the slide of and pull the trigger, it should be about .0330" in further back, include the angle on the striker and the strike moves more than that distance. But since you are a mechanical engineer you probably already knew that.

Keeping Glocks Production legal opens a BIG door. CZ's and Sigs with good triggers are pretty nice. I hear a lot about the spirit of the division stuff everywhere EXCEPT the rule book. If it was important, wouldn't they have mentioned something about it the rulebook? IDPA does that

Ps. If we are getting better guns to the general public, that should be a good thing IMO. I do many more trigger jobs on guns for the average shooter than I do competition guns.

I measured both of my XD-40s as I actually pulled the trigger by measuring the movement of the cocked indicator and they both measure 0.009 inch of rearward striker motion before the strike moves forward. My service has about 3000rds and my tactical has nearly 8000rds.

Even if it was 0.033 inch IMHO this still does not make it double action. If it was double action you would be able to fully cock the striker with the trigger, but you cannot you must first cycle the slide. JMHO striker fired guns don't truly fit either designation well but most sure look more like a SAO gun than a DOA gun to me. My 1891 Argentine Mauser's striker moves back nearly 0.020 inch and I don't think anyone would argue my Mauser is a double action Mauser?

As for the spirit of it. The rules for Production division say no single action, this seems straight forward. A pistol comes along that is basically a single action but has trigger that feels like a double action trigger and the rule people make and exception and allow that because (I'm guess here) it feels like a double action. Shooters then modify the trigger to make it feel as close to a single action trigger as they can and because of the way the rules are written it can be done legally in the, no single action, Production division. In my book that is legal but against the spirit of the rules.

Take that for what its worth which ain't much. I don't shoot production so I don't have a horse in that race. If I did shoot production I would not mod my XD for that division, for that matter I haven't tweaked my trigger for L-10 either. I don't shoot IDPA but don't they call the XD a SAO pistol and put it in divisions accordingly?

As for open BIG doors, don't care about that much either. You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but...

Rambling
mcb

[JD McDorce]

8.1.5.2 of the the current USPSA Rulebook states "Double Action" means activation of the trigger causes more than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or retracts, then falls). Pulling the trigger of a XD accomplishes two actions: deactivation of the trigger safety and allowing the striker to move forward. These are two distinct, sequential actions.

As for the spirit of Production Division, I suppose that one could institute a first shot trigger pull rule (as the IPSC rules do) to keep folks from having their XDs, Glocks, and others modified. However, USPSA decided not to go that route. USPSA rules also allow the shooter to thumb back the hammer on DA/SA's after the start signal, but that is a different story.

As for IDPA, they do not define Single Action or Double Action in their rule book. SSP allows double action, double action only, and safe action (when the trigger is pulled, the hammer/striker is cocked and then released). There is certainly an argument whether the striker on some non-XDs has sufficient potential energy to fire a round from a partially "cocked" position (which is conceptually similar to a 1911 at half-cock).