Poll: The "Butterfly Ballot"

[Delija]

Well Frank, it's clear you won't let this die. And that's fine.

But calling it "research"? C'mon.

Are you going to go down to Florida and interview people that actually used the ballot? Collect samples of the ballots if they still exist?

Or is posting a couple of pictures of a perfectly aligned ballot and asking for a handful of opinions what you really consider to be '"research"?

What is a significant enough sampling of 'votes" to come to any reasonable conclusion?

How's this from another current "poll' on XDTalk?

Originally Posted by Fredo

Should the Bush administration drop restrictions on loaded weapons in parks?

Yes 13
72%
No 5
28%
Total Votes: 18

Does 18 votes have any significance? Enough to even bother with the minimal effort of posting?

Here's what my virtually effortless use of Google found....a photo of a ballot that is obviously either printed or was mounted out of alignment at least to some degree. Certainly it is not as perfect as the examples you've posted to conduct your "research". No matter what you may think of how much the misalignment in this sample would or would not affect anything, it at least demonstrates that all the ballots were not "perfect".



Certainly this ballot is not that far off. But neither is it aligned exactly right. It only takes one "misprint' or one "misaligned" entry into the holder to make your contention invalid. This is certainly not anything you need to be told. Nothing you don't know as well as anyone.

As you may be able to tell from the photo, the paper ballot is elevated above the center punch holes. It can't be that hard to visualize looking at the thing from a low angle and thinking the arrow to the right of Gore could appear to line up with the second hole from the top....a vote for Buchanan.

Aside from this, you have completely ignored the issue I mentioned of the ballots having been on very high podiums making the viewing angle another element (to which you so far give no thought or mention...how can you ignore ANY firsthand input in 'research"?). I am a bit over 6 feet tall and could not see the thing straight on as in the photos.

Old people do "shrink" and therefore viewed the ballot on a more severe tangential angle.

It is historic fact that Pat Buchanan himself laughed and said there was no way that 3000 or so residents of a particular retirement community in Delray Beach would have intentionally voted for him (for obvious reasons, but off topic to the issue aside from the fact they mistakenly voted for the wrong candidate).

It has been said here (and elsewhere) by those without firsthand experience with that ballot at that time in that place that anyone who could be "confused" by this ballot was "Just Stupid". So those 3000 or so retirees were all 'just stupid"?

Here's a comment from one of those "Just Stupid" people who somehow managed to get ordained in Talmudic studies. There are no mail-order degrees in Rabbinical school:

RABBI RICHARD YELLIN
Rabbi for Temple Emeth of Delray Beach, Florida, Yellin was among the voters confused by the "butterfly" ballot. He has concluded, after extensive conversations with his congregation and others, that some of the "butterfly" ballots were misaligned and misprinted while others were not.
Broader Issues in the Florida Vote -- Institute for Public Accuracy (IPA)

Frank....you are certainly capable of doing real "research", but even you would have to admit that this is not it.

Do a poll and ask people if they believe in the Bible. If they say that they do, has your "research" confirmed that the events of the Book of Genesis are historical fact? Would such a poll "prove' that Eve was created from one of Adam's ribs and that she was told by a talking snake to eat from the poisonous tree of knowledge? Would you really consider that you have "proved" by a poll that all of this is a certain matter of fact?

Maybe I'm wrong. If so, I know you will not have any problem telling me so. But as I understand "research", it takes an open mind, no preconceptions, and the ability to have an objective and unbiased outlook on the subject until the study has been completed, etc.

What would you like me to "prove" by using a poll? And would you accept my analysis as valid no matter the venue I used to conduct the poll or the size of the sampling no matter how statistically insignificant?

Seriously Frank....this is beneath you and your abilities. I don't doubt that you realize this. I also don't really expect you to properly "research" the issue...what would be the point of so much effort with no reward? (other than to once again "prove" me wrong).

You are better than this. I didn't think you had it in you to disappoint yourself.

You can do real "research' or stick to your guns (opinion). Either is fine, but the two approaches are incompatible.

Peace,
D.

[FrankRizzoXD40]

I hardly see a difference between the ballot you posted and the ballots I posted.

Are you really trying to make the arguement that you would have trouble with the ballot you posted?

Do you think that by being misaligned a couple of milimeters makes a huge difference?

I guess the fact that 16 OTHER counties in Florida had a higher percentage of disqualified ballots make no difference to you?

I would be happy to make another poll with the picture of your ballot. Just let me know.

Oh and can't you read? I said this is a bi-partisan poll. This is a research project, not a debate.

For your convenience, I am supplying the link to "the offical bickering thread", where you can address your personal greivances with me there.

Official Bickering Thread

Thanks and let me know if you want me to make another poll with your picture to be fair.

Thanks,

Frank

[JeffXD]

We used to use the book ballot thingy where you punch your selection with the tack. I never had a problem with it. Perhaps its because during my time in public school we did nearly ever test on a Scantron sheet and I already had alot of practice matching my selection in a little bubble. For what its worth, my grandmother had alot of trouble with the new touch screen machines we are using now.

[AZXD]

Deal with it!

[Krackels]

Originally Posted by FrankRizzoXD40

My question to you all is--do you think this ballot is confusing?

Please answer truthfully.

Thanks,

Frank

Not one bit. If people can't figure out how to vote using this ballot they probably should hang out more with their children, they might learn something.

If those are holes in the second photo than someone should go back to grade school so they can play draw a line to the things that match and let's learn how to count.

[Delija]

Originally Posted by FrankRizzoXD40

IOh and can't you read? I said this is a bi-partisan poll. This is a research project, not a debate.

No debate Frank. I simply tried to point out that you call something "research" but you don't seem to be conducting it as such.

You seem to clearly be looking for an affirmation of what you already believe.

I tried to present some additional information and to bring my perspective on the issue. Obviously it was not welcome, You started another poll with the result that my input gets discarded....Which is fine.... we seem to have differing opinions of what the word "research" actually means.

It doesn't really fly to take the misaligned copy of the ballot I posted and use it to help your "poll" participants get distracted from any relevant context. The post I made to put it into some kind of context obviously didn't work for you so you invoke a most unusual tactic for a non-biased "research project"....Responding with an acrimonious "can't you read"....LOL....what provoked THAT? (other than an attitude).

Maybe it would help if you gave the reason for your "research"............is it a school project? Are you writing a book? Are you going to publish your findings anywhere? Or is it more like what I am guessing (rightly or wrongly).....self affirmation?

I don't care what it's for really, but if you truly are interested in "research" in the traditional sense, you should certainly try and consider all the information you can possibly accumulate, not reject what you don't wish to hear or consider. So since that is not what you have done or seem interested in attempting, I just have to dismiss this as being in any way shape or form any attempt at "research".

You simply calling it 'research" doesn't make it so. Just like Tom (XDFun) putting titles on his cut and paste threads that have no relationship to the actual content of his (copied) posts doesn't make the titles relevant at all. "Dems Weep" LOL....same kind of thing.

I doubt that anyone would seriously consider your efforts here or in your new "version II" to be an unbiased "research" project. I'm sure that you yourself don't really consider it to be anything more than what it is.

And a gun owners forum is certainly the exact right place to conduct any research in which Al Gore vs. GWB is a factor......You could not possibly get a more skewed and biased sampling for a poll without going to some dedicated political web-site (left, right, conservative, liberal, Rep, Dem, all of the above).

Whatever Frank....enjoy the results. I have zero doubt they will conform exactly to what you wish to.. The only thing I can't be certain of is to whom, other than yourself, you wish to prove anything.

Doing "research" and ignoring the input of people who had first hand experience is certainly a novel approach. Maybe you should forget this project and write a paper re-defining the concept of what the word "research" means in this new world of reality you seem to be constructing.

Originally Posted by AZXD

Deal with it!

Yeah, a complete waste of time. Reason and even the meaning of words has been declared useless. Sorry I wasted any effort at all. Someone says they intend to do "research" and like a fool I believed it. Should have known better. My bad, and I'm ashamed of myself for even trying to contribute to what has been clearly misrepresented as something it has zero relationship to.

"Research" indeed!!!

Peace,
D.

[FrankRizzoXD40]

Originally Posted by Delija

I tried to present some additional information and to bring my perspective on the issue. Obviously it was not welcome, You started another poll with the result that my input gets discarded....

Your input was certainly not discarded!

I even started another poll with the picture YOU gave me in order to be fair. I think I've gone above and beyond to accomodate your requests.

Originally Posted by Delija

It doesn't really fly to take the misaligned copy of the ballot I posted and use it to help your "poll" participants get distracted from any relevant context.

Why does it not "fly" to post the same picture you posted and let people judge for themselves? How does it distract them

Originally Posted by Delija

Maybe it would help if you gave the reason for your "research"............is it a school project? Are you writing a book? Are you going to publish your findings anywhere? Or is it more like what I am guessing (rightly or wrongly).....self affirmation?

I am writing a thesis paper about the 2000 Florida elections. I also may put the results in my memoirs someday.

Originally Posted by Delija

I doubt that anyone would seriously consider your efforts here or in your new "version II" to be an unbiased "research" project.

Have you read the responses?

So, how did you vote, Delija?

Like I said before, this is not a debate. It is a non-partisan poll.

Please address any greivances that you have with the pollster (me) elsewhere, like in "The Official Bickering Thread."

Thank you for your participation.

Frank

[Dhunter55]

Originally Posted by Noah Mercy

Well, since the problem arose due to Democratic supporters standing at the doors to the polling places and telling the Spanish speaking voters to "vote for the second one down", I think the "confusion" was just poetic justice. See, they couldn't tell them to punch Gore because too many of them are illiterate as well as non-English-speaking. And, yes, this is what happened, despite it being illegal as all get out. I was living in Florida and witnessed it. I reported it to the officials at the polling site and myself and several others tried to get the local media interested. No dice...though it would have been a different story if it had been Republicans doing the same thing in the same places.

Incidentally, they gave the same ballot to a class of first graders and a group of 80+ year olds in a group home. Neither demographic had any problem whatsoever figuring out the ballot, thereby making the "confusing ballot" moniker look a little suspicious.

Must not have been Dade County where you voted because they would have told you in Spanish to vote for Bush not Gore.

[cucamelsmd15]

Well, Ill approach this from two angles.

Its not confusing to me. I would venture to guess its not confusing to say, 60% of the general public.

What I am about to say is not a slam against anyone in particular, just my observation. It IS confusing to someone who is older and not as accustomed to deciphering forms such as this. Ive seen it countless times standing behind a pharmacy counter, asking someone to sign a signature line marked with an arrow similar to this (albiet, not on the spine of a page). Given Florida's elderly population, I can see this being a major problem.

Again, just my opinion.

Moreover, Im more concerned about a Socialist even being on the ballot. Oh wait, Hillary and/or Obama will be on the ballot, right?

[Krackels]

Originally Posted by Delija

. . .
Certainly this ballot is not that far off. But neither is it aligned exactly right. It only takes one "misprint' or one "misaligned" entry into the holder to make your contention invalid. This is certainly not anything you need to be told. Nothing you don't know as well as anyone.

As you may be able to tell from the photo, the paper ballot is elevated above the center punch holes. It can't be that hard to visualize looking at the thing from a low angle and thinking the arrow to the right of Gore could appear to line up with the second hole from the top....a vote for Buchanan.
. . .
Peace,
D.

I see what you're saying, and I agree it could be an issue if it's misaligned. If they go through all this trouble, why not just have a paper ballot where you check off who you're voting for and throw an inked thumb print or something in a box on the corner to prevent tampering.

Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.