Shooting in my little town with poll - Page 3 - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

Verm · 05-11-2005, 12:39 PM

I've served a fair share of warrants and just from what the story is saying, the police made some bigtime errors. First off, if they are serving a warrant, they should have made the arrest there outside and cuffed the suspect. If he needed shoes, you DO NOT let the suspect go ahead of you into a dark house where he knows the building and may have weapons that he can get to while you are trying to find your way around. You detain him right then and there while you have the control of the situation. Then if there is something in the house that is needed the officer gets it, not the suspect. You get permission to enter, you then stand outside and yell in to identify yourself and make sure there are no other people in there. If there are, you order them to come to you so you maintain control. If you do enter, you first clear the first room and find the lightswitch at the same time you are yelling to announce your presence. To top it off, when dealing with farming communities, I would never serve a misdemeanor warrant at night.

I would say, just from the story, that the family has a good chance at a wrongful death lawsuit against the dept. and the deputies.

Here is the thing that sets off my alarms. They knew the subject so were most likely aware he lived with his parents and that those parents would be in the house and most likely asleep. They entered behind the suspect, they were using flashlights so neither ordered the suspect to turn on the lights. If the father came out WITH a firearm, that tells me that they DID NOT identify themselves as they entered. If I saw 2 unknown people in my house, with flashlights and firearms in hand and they failed to id themselves, I too would start shooting first, no questions asked. That is why there are procedures LEOs are taught to follow, so they don't get their asses shot by a person protecting their lives from unknowns.

If you follow procedures, then when situations like this go bad, the cops have those procedures to fall back on. When you completely blow all those procedures WHICH, btw, are created to keep both you and the civilian population safe, then no matter what the other side did, your actions will be looked at as suspect.

Example here will be "If you had placed him under arrest outside and then announced your presence to wake the others, then the father more than likely would not have come out startled by 2 unknown armed people in the dark, would he?"

R/T Performance · 05-11-2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wJAKE19

what cop shot Fred?

I know most of the ionia county cops, just wondering who it was.

I belive Travis Gribble was the one that fired the shot him and Brent Denny where the two their

R/T Performance · 05-11-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willbond

Sorry, but I'm extremely biased on this particular subject.

I understand thats why I posted this.It's been driving me nuts.
Thanks to everyone that posted I appricate all of the input.
Some of our local boy's seem to make their own rules .
Like picking up teens for smashing mailboxes on Easter sunday for processing.Yes they broke the law yes Zach should have went to court regaurdless .
But are the police actions correct?
Agian Thanks I feel better now

retired · 05-11-2005, 05:25 PM

I wasn't there and I don't want to Monday morning quarterback the deputies but...another way might have been to just hook the idiot up and put him in the radio car. If they decided to obtain his shoes, they could have knocked on the door and gotten them from dad once they explained the situation. That would have probably been the end of it.

Ok, since they didn't do it that way, I would say this to some of the things brought up. Yes, they did have the right to enter the house with him to ensure their safety and make sure he had no access to a gun (remember nickc, dad had one). He was basically arrested at that point, they were just being nice, which in hindsight, I'm sure they wish they had not been.

Second, to have one dep. outside in front and one in back shows a lack of knowledge as to le tactics, splittiing up and officer safety procedures. Staying together was the proper thing. They weren't required to let him escape out the back to catch another time.

Third, as far as pointing their guns at him while in his house and while he was following orders, that was their decision and they shouldn't be questioned for that. After some time on the job, you acquire a 6th sense about things and that may have been one of those times. They may have done so based on the totality of the circumstances, for their safety. I drew my weapon many on traffic stops, contact stops and contact calls, depending on the situation and based on my training and experience. Sometimes I pointed it at people and sometimes it was hidden by my thigh or back. It just depended on the situation. So did every other deputy I worked with.

All in all, a tragic incident, but I don't believe the deputies will be charged; they probably will be sued though.

R/T Performance did the deputies have their uniforms on. Your post doesn't say and I didn't read the articles you offered.

RonS · 05-11-2005, 06:00 PM

Better get used to things like this, as society continues to fall apart more ordinary people are going to come in contact with the police due to their inability to cope with life, and some of them are going to get killed or hurt. Drug use is going up, violence is going up and society expects the police to keep a lid on it all despite the fact that very few average people have any sense of responsibility or correct behavior. Well, they can do that, but we are all going to pay the price in terms of living in a police state. Personally, I consider every police officer that I don't know by name a walking free-fire-zone, and I try to stay clear of them; you never know what they are dealing with or how your actions might be interpreted.

Google "Preble county shooting suit" and see what I mean. What ever you do, don't answer the door with a coffee cup in your hand.

R/T Performance · 05-11-2005, 06:22 PM

I do belive they both where in uniform.
I really don't understand why no one turned the lights on.
I will check that link

retired · 05-11-2005, 06:41 PM

RonS, fyi, you have to drop the quotes to get the story when you go to google; at least I did.

I read one account and it didn't say anything about him answering the door with a cup of coffee in his hand. It did say he was on the staircase when an officer shot him after believing he had been shot. A friend of the deceased said he was carrying a blue cup, the police report said a gun was found near his body.

It also said a grand jury declined to indict, there is a civil lawsuit filed by the parents and the DA is still looking into it. But nothing was said about answering the door with a cup of coffee in his hand in the article I read.

There was one site that is so obviously anti le, that I stopped reading it real fast.

R/T Performance · 05-11-2005, 06:49 PM

Is it common to have a buglers cut a deal and give up a possible drug house?
Seems like bad info and poor training

Dragoon44 · 05-11-2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Is it common to have a buglers cut a deal and give up a possible drug house?
Seems like bad info and poor training

as much as LEO's might prefer their informants be altar boys and nuns, those folks dont seem to have much info on what criminals are doing and where.

retired · 05-11-2005, 11:39 PM

Bad guys become informants lots of times in order to make deals on their own charges. It's been done for years and years. How do you think a lot of the Mafiaoso have been taken down? By their own people making deals. I believe John Gotti would be an example of that.

Dragoon +1

View Poll Results: You are awakend buy you dog a midnight and find two man with flash lights and guns
Open fire at first sight	27	32.14%
Turn lights on	14	16.67%
Drop your weapon at their request	3	3.57%
Stay in your bedroom and call police	38	45.24%
Cry or climb out window and run away	2	2.38%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

05-11-2005, 12:39 PM	#21
Verm XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Carson City NV. Posts: 814	I've served a fair share of warrants and just from what the story is saying, the police made some bigtime errors. First off, if they are serving a warrant, they should have made the arrest there outside and cuffed the suspect. If he needed shoes, you DO NOT let the suspect go ahead of you into a dark house where he knows the building and may have weapons that he can get to while you are trying to find your way around. You detain him right then and there while you have the control of the situation. Then if there is something in the house that is needed the officer gets it, not the suspect. You get permission to enter, you then stand outside and yell in to identify yourself and make sure there are no other people in there. If there are, you order them to come to you so you maintain control. If you do enter, you first clear the first room and find the lightswitch at the same time you are yelling to announce your presence. To top it off, when dealing with farming communities, I would never serve a misdemeanor warrant at night. I would say, just from the story, that the family has a good chance at a wrongful death lawsuit against the dept. and the deputies. Here is the thing that sets off my alarms. They knew the subject so were most likely aware he lived with his parents and that those parents would be in the house and most likely asleep. They entered behind the suspect, they were using flashlights so neither ordered the suspect to turn on the lights. If the father came out WITH a firearm, that tells me that they DID NOT identify themselves as they entered. If I saw 2 unknown people in my house, with flashlights and firearms in hand and they failed to id themselves, I too would start shooting first, no questions asked. That is why there are procedures LEOs are taught to follow, so they don't get their asses shot by a person protecting their lives from unknowns. If you follow procedures, then when situations like this go bad, the cops have those procedures to fall back on. When you completely blow all those procedures WHICH, btw, are created to keep both you and the civilian population safe, then no matter what the other side did, your actions will be looked at as suspect. Example here will be "If you had placed him under arrest outside and then announced your presence to wake the others, then the father more than likely would not have come out startled by 2 unknown armed people in the dark, would he?" __________________ Enough firepower, the will and the guts to use it all.

05-11-2005, 06:22 PM	#26
R/T Performance XDTalk 3K Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Saranac Mi Posts: 3,491	I do belive they both where in uniform. I really don't understand why no one turned the lights on. I will check that link __________________ XD-9 Tacticle Tru-glow tfo's 3# Canyoncreek trigger Dillon Rl550 1911 Springfield Champion loaded 45 acp Kahr p40 Watch me shoot http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32660329653237

05-11-2005, 06:49 PM	#28
R/T Performance XDTalk 3K Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Saranac Mi Posts: 3,491	Is it common to have a buglers cut a deal and give up a possible drug house? Seems like bad info and poor training __________________ XD-9 Tacticle Tru-glow tfo's 3# Canyoncreek trigger Dillon Rl550 1911 Springfield Champion loaded 45 acp Kahr p40 Watch me shoot http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32660329653237

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05-11-2005, 05:25 PM	#24
retired XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 5,397	I wasn't there and I don't want to Monday morning quarterback the deputies but...another way might have been to just hook the idiot up and put him in the radio car. If they decided to obtain his shoes, they could have knocked on the door and gotten them from dad once they explained the situation. That would have probably been the end of it. Ok, since they didn't do it that way, I would say this to some of the things brought up. Yes, they did have the right to enter the house with him to ensure their safety and make sure he had no access to a gun (remember nickc, dad had one). He was basically arrested at that point, they were just being nice, which in hindsight, I'm sure they wish they had not been. Second, to have one dep. outside in front and one in back shows a lack of knowledge as to le tactics, splittiing up and officer safety procedures. Staying together was the proper thing. They weren't required to let him escape out the back to catch another time. Third, as far as pointing their guns at him while in his house and while he was following orders, that was their decision and they shouldn't be questioned for that. After some time on the job, you acquire a 6th sense about things and that may have been one of those times. They may have done so based on the totality of the circumstances, for their safety. I drew my weapon many on traffic stops, contact stops and contact calls, depending on the situation and based on my training and experience. Sometimes I pointed it at people and sometimes it was hidden by my thigh or back. It just depended on the situation. So did every other deputy I worked with. All in all, a tragic incident, but I don't believe the deputies will be charged; they probably will be sued though. R/T Performance did the deputies have their uniforms on. Your post doesn't say and I didn't read the articles you offered.

05-11-2005, 06:00 PM	#25
RonS XDTalk 100 Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 179	Better get used to things like this, as society continues to fall apart more ordinary people are going to come in contact with the police due to their inability to cope with life, and some of them are going to get killed or hurt. Drug use is going up, violence is going up and society expects the police to keep a lid on it all despite the fact that very few average people have any sense of responsibility or correct behavior. Well, they can do that, but we are all going to pay the price in terms of living in a police state. Personally, I consider every police officer that I don't know by name a walking free-fire-zone, and I try to stay clear of them; you never know what they are dealing with or how your actions might be interpreted. Google "Preble county shooting suit" and see what I mean. What ever you do, don't answer the door with a coffee cup in your hand.

05-11-2005, 06:41 PM	#27
retired XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 5,397	RonS, fyi, you have to drop the quotes to get the story when you go to google; at least I did. I read one account and it didn't say anything about him answering the door with a cup of coffee in his hand. It did say he was on the staircase when an officer shot him after believing he had been shot. A friend of the deceased said he was carrying a blue cup, the police report said a gun was found near his body. It also said a grand jury declined to indict, there is a civil lawsuit filed by the parents and the DA is still looking into it. But nothing was said about answering the door with a cup of coffee in his hand in the article I read. There was one site that is so obviously anti le, that I stopped reading it real fast.

05-11-2005, 11:39 PM	#30
retired XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 5,397	Bad guys become informants lots of times in order to make deals on their own charges. It's been done for years and years. How do you think a lot of the Mafiaoso have been taken down? By their own people making deals. I believe John Gotti would be an example of that. Dragoon +1