Individualism vs. Collectivism

[gsh341]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

So you think it's every many for himself? F*ck everybody else?

No. You've obviously misunderstood.

It's me and my family first, everyone else second.

The reason for this is that unless you and your family are taken care first, how can you and your family possibly help another?

The choices are simple.

Squalor and misery for everyone as enforced by the government

or

Allow the best and brightest to succeed as much as they can manage and thus make goods cheaper for everyone. They will make more money and then they can be charitable to those less fortunate as they are able.

[OKMatt]

I can hear it now, individualist are; selfish , greedy, mean, hate-filled etc, etc, etc.

[OKMatt]

Originally Posted by Ishpeck

A little bit, yeah. But the Libertarian party does exist so... there's no reason to start it over again.

Did you watch any of their convention?
Their ideas are basicly great but the people who "lead" the party seem pretty wacko.
not necessarily Bob Barr, but he wasn't the most inspiring person to watch either.

[CrAz3D]

Oh wow. This is great.

[Ishpeck]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

So you think it's every many for himself? F*ck everybody else?

The intelligent individualist knows that he stands to gain more from the voluntary cooperation of others than from ostracizing, or screwing others.

The misunderstanding is common. Public education, entertainment, and simple misunderstanding of the truth have lead many to see individualism as an insane caricature that sits aloof of -- perhaps even entertained by -- the suffering of his fellow man.

I believe people are, by their nature, selfish and greedy pikers. It's all about "me, me, me, screw you" to them. And somewhere along the way, people have developed the ability to think as a group but they don't stop being greedy little pikers. They say "us, us, us, screw you" which is really no better.

A benevolent and just individualist doesn't care for groups who trample over others anymore than they'd like a single despot trampling over others. It's not about "me" or "us" but about "YOU" the individual. Rather than thinking of us as a messy collective that lives so long as there are a certain number of people, we see each person as precious and worthy of protection. We protect each individual's rights and hope that others will do the same for us.

Enlightened self-interest is the only ethical way to live.

Originally Posted by OKMatt

Did you watch any of their convention?
Their ideas are basicly great but the people who "lead" the party seem pretty wacko.
not necessarily Bob Barr, but he wasn't the most inspiring person to watch either.

Yeah, the Libertarians aren't perfect. They've got some issues -- and I don't believe that Libertarianism is appropriate at the state/county/municipal level. But at the federal level, I would love to have as many of them as we can get.

Part of the problem with the Libertarians is a natural result of their philosophy, though. The idea that we shouldn't impose ourselves on others makes it implicitly harder to get others to join our cause. Compare to the Imperialist (R)'s of today or the Socialist (D)'s who have a very tribalistic "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude because it's comforting to feel like you've got a clan behind you. That's why kids join gangs, for example.

[Pharmakon]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

So you think it's every many for himself? F*ck everybody else?

You couldn't have watched if you are responding like that. Just give it a look. Individualists do care just like collectivists. But they believe in doing it in freedom rather than coercion.

Please take this comment w/a grain of salt. But you have a problem with depriving enemy combatants their rights (which I think is a sensible view btw) but you have no problem with having the government forcibly take the money and property of it's citizens for "the greater good"? Where does the government derive this right? I cannot delegate it to them. That's the difference between a law and an edict. An edict is power that the government assumes that individuals themselves cannot render to the government because they do not have that right. If we are not a nation of laws then we are a nation of men which always ends in an Oligarchy.

Why don't you ask some of those Texas ranchers how they feel about having their multi-generational ranches seized by eminent domain for the NAFTA.

[CrAz3D]

I just finished the series. Wow.


I'm slight more pro-govt than just defense in that I believe education is progressive, would benefit everyone (and not a specific group) and that it should be a HUGE issue...but otherwise, those videos embody what I think.

[Ishpeck]

Originally Posted by CrAz3D

I believe education is progressive, would benefit everyone (and not a specific group) and that it should be a HUGE issue...

But consider the way collectivism can corrupt the individual's benefits from public education.

Two major kinds of collectivists have declared war on each other in the field of public education. One group wishes to impose its own system of ethics on other peoples' children. The other wishes to impose religious/spiritual beliefs on fields of science.

Both these groups hate each other for their desire to impose certain ideas onto other people.

Public education is too provocative to collectivists as a sort of play ground where they can run amok on the minds of individuals, snuffing out that spark that makes them true humans.

I believe that public education has served a valuable purpose but that purpose has been out-lived.

Literacy and arithmetic do not require some special mutant powers to teach. I was reading at a "college level" (whatever that means) before I started First Grade -- because my mother bothered to sit down and teach me.

Moreover, private industries stand to gain more from having a qualified populous to hire workers out of. Companies that know what's best for them in the competitive marketplace ought to sponsor schools and student loans because the alternative is losing qualified workers to companies that do.

I believe education is as important as you say it is. And because it's so important, it's best to keep the government and collectivists out of it.

[gsh341]

Originally Posted by CrAz3D

I just finished the series. Wow.


I'm slight more pro-govt than just defense in that I believe education is progressive, would benefit everyone (and not a specific group) and that it should be a HUGE issue...but otherwise, those videos embody what I think.

You should watch this one next. It may change your mind about public education.

YouTube - Dismantle Public Education

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by OKMatt

I can hear it now, individualist are; selfish , greedy, mean, hate-filled etc, etc, etc.

That want to

Originally Posted by Etta Place

F*ck everybody else?

Such words Etta
Is this what internal reflection has taught you ??