Government benevolence is not Christian

[OKMatt]

Politicians citing the Bible as their inspiration for governmental benevolent acts(welfare in all its forms) make me cringe.
Christ does command Christians, individually and as a church to take care of the needy. He does not command that we take from others and give what was taken to the needy, or cause celeb.
When the rich man asked Christ what he needed to do in order to have eternal life, Christ told him to sell all his possessions and give the proceeds to the poor.
The rich man looked sad an walked away.
Politicians, mainly liberals, would have us believe that Christ instructed his disciples to go and take the rich mans stuff, sell it and give the proceeds to the poor. there by saving the rich man's soul.
He did no such thing. He allowed the rich man to make his choice.
Good works for God are voluntary not compulsory.

God wants us to help the needy. He also wants ALL the Glory (credit) for us doing good in his name.
How does God receive the glory for government actions done for the glorification of the government?
Especially a government who has systematically worked to exclude the mention of God from all governmental activities.

Beware politicians claiming to want to do God's work by stealing from one group of people to give to another.
This is not working for the Lord. This does not fulfill your obligation to help the needy, if you're a Christian.
It is vote buying for the glory of politicians and government, not Gods.

End rant.

[yeahYeah]

that's the type of Christianity the left likes...the type that justifies the communism they love so much. Rev. Wright should be the official spiritual leader of the DNC for goodness sakes.

[Carnivorous]

Originally Posted by OKMatt

Politicians citing the Bible as their inspiration for governmental benevolent acts(welfare in all its forms) make me cringe.

Politicians citing the Bible for anything makes me cringe. After all, we are commanded to be in the world, but not of it. Doing politics in a "Christian" way is putting the world first and Christianity second, which isn't the Biblical way to do it.

Additionally, to bring in the conservative side of the aisle, legislating morality is a joke---God is the only one who can force us all to not do something. If He declined to prevent drinking on Sundays, adultery, and quickie divorces, then what makes us think that our laws can prevent them? Or even that we should try?

Originally Posted by OKMatt

Good works for God are voluntary not compulsory.

Tithing is a compulsory "good work." The church takes your money and does what it wants with it, even if you disagree with their particular good. (Example: my church has very high production values on its fliers and programs. Expensive paper, full color printing... that's just a waste. But we still give, because they do other things that are good.)

Also, Catholics will disagree with you on voluntariness. They read James to say that good works are a necessity for salvation.

Originally Posted by OKMatt

How does God receive the glory for government actions done for the glorification of the government?

The same way that God received the glory when Babylon conquered the two states of Israel. Government action done for government glory reunified Israel and bore out God's plan. Just because the act and the intent are secular, or even in opposition to God, does not mean that God won't achieve His purpose through them. I could elaborate, but it's late... anyway, my point is that no matter what we do or don't do, God's plan occurs and He is glorified through it. (If we do something that achieves God's objectives, doesn't that glorify Him?)

Originally Posted by OKMatt

Especially a government who has systematically worked to exclude the mention of God from all governmental activities.

I would rather a government be completely sectarian than to pretend to be Christian. Judges and Kings, and the events of the last several hundred years, all prove that secularism taints theology. It's too easy to compromise your faith and your duty to God to achieve a political end. Be in the world not of it: you don't have to worry about compromising your faith when the value of your faith is not tied to your political achievements. This is exactly where the evangelical movement has run aground the last few years. They made some political sacrifices to try to get some "good" progress and legislation, but who is glorified when you sacrifice your beliefs? God is more powerful than any legislative achievement you can make.

---

Sorry for playing the devil's advocate; I'm actually a huge believer in the commands in Matthew to do your good works in private. So I totally agree with your sentiment and where you're coming from. We end in slightly different places, but I'm glad we started in the same spot.

[OKMatt]

Originally Posted by Carnivorous

Tithing is a compulsory "good work." The church takes your money and does what it wants with it, even if you disagree with their particular good. (Example: my church has very high production values on its fliers and programs. Expensive paper, full color printing... that's just a waste. But we still give, because they do other things that are good.)

Tithing is the only thing God said to test him on. Mal 3:10
It is not compulsory. If it were, God would say do it or else. Not test me and see how I bless you.
If a church member disagrees with the use of funds at their church they can address it or worship/tithe elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Carnivorous

Also, Catholics will disagree with you on voluntariness. They read James to say that good works are a necessity for salvation.

The thief that died next to Christ, his feet never touched the ground to do a single good work. Yet, Christ saw him in paradise.

Originally Posted by Carnivorous

The same way that God received the glory when Babylon conquered the two states of Israel. Government action done for government glory reunified Israel and bore out God's plan. Just because the act and the intent are secular, or even in opposition to God, does not mean that God won't achieve His purpose through them. I could elaborate, but it's late... anyway, my point is that no matter what we do or don't do, God's plan occurs and He is glorified through it. (If we do something that achieves God's objectives, doesn't that glorify Him?)

God certainly uses global/governmental actions for his purpose.
But as a single christian, or as the communal Church the intentions behind the deeds, glorifying God, are what we are charged with.
If I set out to rob somebody and in the process interfere with the murder of some other person. My actions were not to glorify God. But God used My evil action to produce a good outcome somewhere else.
My action of robbery was NOT to the glory/credit of God yet he could use some aspects of an evil deed to bless someone else.( maybe a weak analogy but I hope you get my meaning)



My main point is that Christ didn't force the Rich man to be charitable. Neither should a politician force me to be charitable.
Not that I am against charity.
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Originally Posted by Carnivorous

Sorry for playing the devil's advocate; I'm actually a huge believer in the commands in Matthew to do your good works in private. So I totally agree with your sentiment and where you're coming from. We end in slightly different places, but I'm glad we started in the same spot.

No problem, I certainly am not a Bible scholar and enjoy others take on subjects.
I am happy in the belief that there are many mysteries that are not reveled to believers on Earth. I just do my best with what I know. And continue to study.

[one-eyed-fatman]

Politicians jack with religion cause it looks good on their resume.

[OKMatt]

"Lucky" Ned Pepper: "That's bold talk for a one-eyed fat man."
I love John wayne

[Ishpeck]

An author who's work I respect once wrote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Bachelor

Though as Buddha overcame Mara and Christ defeated Satan, it does not prevent Mara from tainting Buddhism and Satan from corrupting Christianity.

It's so easy to twist the teachings of Christ; to preach the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. It is so difficult to truly follow The Way.

[OKMatt]

Originally Posted by Ishpeck

It's so easy to twist the teachings of Christ; to preach the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

God through Paul warned of this. Galatians 1:8,9

Originally Posted by Ishpeck

It is so difficult to truly follow The Way.

We were also warned about this.
Narrow is the gate hard is the way. Matthew 7:14

[Reeek]

And God's commandments are directed at his followers, to each human that reads his Word and commandments and has chosen to accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

His commandments are not directed at a government. Just because a government states that they are one nation, under God, doesn't mean that said nation has accepted Him as their Lord and Savior for all people. A nation is not judged before God in order to get to Heaven or be banished to hell. A person is.

That would be like Peter accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as Paul's Lord and Savior so Paul could enter Heaven.

My government speaks for me as a nation on earth but they do not speak for me to God.

I do that, if I wish, myself in private or a self chosen church of a self chosen belief.

What's scary to me is a government accepting any God as it's Lord and Savior because they may end up on a campaign much like the islamic terrorists.

[Carnivorous]

Originally Posted by OKMatt

Tithing is the only thing God said to test him on. Mal 3:10
It is not compulsory. If it were, God would say do it or else. Not test me and see how I bless you.

Interesting comparison to Matthew 4:7 ("Jesus answered him, 'It is also written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"), and Deuteronomy 6:16 ("Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah").

But, I forgot my 2 Corinthians 9:7: "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

Originally Posted by OKMatt

The thief that died next to Christ, his feet never touched the ground to do a single good work. Yet, Christ saw him in paradise.

Point to you. But compare:

James 2:14 ("What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?")

James 2:26 ("As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.")

If faith without works is dead faith, and faith without works cannot save someone, then the implication is that good works (perhaps not specific good works, but good works in general) are required for salvation/justification. I personally ascribe to the view that good works are evidence of faith, and a living out of faith, but not required. Catholics that I know argue the opposite, mainly based on James, but also based on Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." The message there is that if you don't do good works, and thus don't do God's will, you won't reach God's kingdom.

Also, you should re-read Luke 10:25–37; I know I'm skewing this a little out of context, but it could be interpreted to read that Jesus says you HAVE to love your neighbor as yourself and take care of those less fortunate than you in order to inherit eternal life.

Originally Posted by OKMatt

My main point is that Christ didn't force the Rich man to be charitable. Neither should a politician force me to be charitable.
Not that I am against charity.

But you let politicians force you to do a bunch of things. Some things you are ok doing yourself (disciplining your children, for example) but object to the government making you do it. The problem, though, is that in order for government to function, we have to do things that we don't necessarily want to do (pay taxes, obey traffic laws, etc.) in order to survive as a society.

And, there's some scripture reference saying that's a GOOD thing: Matthew 22:21 ("Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.") and Romans 13:1 ("Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.").