There is a sickness in this country

[AZXD]

Spoiler

[Pharmakon]

First you tell us to get involved and take action if we don't like what's going on and now you are telling us to just chill and vote for the two guys they put in front of you.

Oh...I'm so confused now.

McCain is indeed a reaction, just opposite of what most conservatives want. Obama is also further to the left than the average Democratic nominee. So if both parties are beginning to move to the left that means liberals are becoming socialists, Republicans are becoming moderates and conservatives should vote libertarian(in theory, I wouldn't dare mention practice ) does it not?

And the ultra-conservatives can win. A lot of people are pretty thristy for the real deal after all this. That's why I see the Libertarian party as sort of an emerging market for real conservatives. That's also why I support the waves that people like Paul made and Barr will make in this election. Little by little the libertarian party is gaining clout.

And it's a good thing too. Left unchecked the jackals in Washington will surely turn us into "just another country."

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

Left unchecked the jackals in Washington will surely turn us into "just another country."

Just another candidate

[Krackels]

I partially agree with you.
We should vote for the candidate that we support the most. However, if there was an abundance of "third parties" we'd have the same problem that countries like Italy have.

There would be 12 parties running for office (i.e. Liberal, conservatives, Communist, socialist, green, labor, pro-Marijuana party, Democratic-Republicans, etc etc) ensuring that everyone can vote for a candidate that they strongly agree with. However what happens in the end is something different entirely, a president elected with a majority vote of 12% which assures that while the candidate got the majority vote he doesn't represent the majority of his country's citizens.

If Bob Barr (or any third party candidate) really wanted to change America he should've joined a major party and sought to do it from the inside out.

If the race is close and McCain loses I can probably blame Bob Barr.

In conclusion, I'm completely for having Bob Barr on the ballot as long as the left has some good third party candidates on the ballot (and hopefully more than a few) as well.

ETA: I changed my sig for ya.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

I would suggest that he knew that his national candidacy was going nowhere, but he did have a hot contest for his Congressional seat. His message would be difficult at best to get out, if he lost this election.
While i was disappointed that he dropped out, the message in my opinion was the priority. His run allow that to reach a national audience, and it will continue to do so.

I just wish Barr was that smart, to realize his national candidacy is going now where.

Originally Posted by Krackels

If Bob Barr (or any third party candidate) really wanted to change America he should've joined a major party and sought to do it from the inside out.

If the race is close and McCain loses I can probably blame Bob Barr.

In conclusion, I'm completely for having Bob Barr on the ballot as long as the left has some good third party candidates on the ballot (and hopefully more than a few) as well.

ETA: I changed my sig for ya.

I pretty much agree with what I quoted Krackels.

Bar will be the spoiler for McCain.

Not sure that any one is in yet, that would do the same to Obama.

[Pharmakon]

Originally Posted by Krackels

ETA: I changed my sig for ya.

Um...thanks? I guess I laugh at that for now Mr. candybar-person.

The two party system is has sapped power from the American voter. Think of the political game as a business. There is a demand for a better choice and the market will provide if the status quo businesses fails to do so. Competition only makes things better. Simple cause and effect is predictably at work here.

In an ideal world we would only need the black and white two party system (or even more ideally, one) . But to say that is still the case when the both parties seem to moving to the same ends would be foolish.

12 parties? With all the outrage over even a third I don't think we are in any danger of that happening any time soon. Besides, most of the parties you described can be consolidated down to few parties that represent their core beliefs.

Which is the party for conservatives in America that want common sense and small government?

So you think I'm foolish? That's cool. I have said before that I intend to think positively and act rationally. In other words, I'll continue to support what I believe in and try to promote conservative ideas and a conservative candidate. But when election day rolls around if Barr is little more than a whisper then I will consider voting against Obama. What's foolish about standing up for what you believe and then acting rationally when the time comes for the best possible outcome.

IMO it's foolish to echo that we have only the choices that are given to us and that there is just no use in trying to influence our political process.

Or we could just let both parties keep veering to the left and see what happens.

[Bree]

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

First you tell us to get involved and take action if we don't like what's going on and now you are telling us to just chill and vote for the two guys they put in front of you.

Oh...I'm so confused now.

I told people to put up money and walk the walk and stop talking the talk. I still believe that is true. But when you have a lot of talkers and few walkers the best thing is for the talkers to just pick as to one and leave the other behind.

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

McCain is indeed a reaction, just opposite of what most conservatives want. Obama is also further to the left than the average Democratic nominee. So if both parties are beginning to move to the left that means liberals are becoming socialists, Republicans are becoming moderates and conservatives should vote libertarian(in theory, I wouldn't dare mention practice ) does it not?

Obama is simply normal Democratic fare. He is no further left than Ted Kennedy or his ilk. As for conservatives... they should cut their losses and elect someone who is closer to them than the Democrat. Like it or not that is McCain. He is not highly liked or respected in the right wing circles but he is many times better than Obama.

It would be lovely if one could reasonably vote Libertarian. But just consider what would you have if you won? Zilch. There is no support for Libertarian programs in a Democrat held Congress. You simply have blockage... more gridlock. The promise of such a candidate is crushed beneath the wheel of reality that power is shared between three branches of government. If you want to change something you need the Congress on your side. Libertarians don't have it and they are not going to get it any time soon. So it's a wasted trip with them. Simple reality check.

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

And the ultra-conservatives can win. A lot of people are pretty thristy for the real deal after all this. That's why I see the Libertarian party as sort of an emerging market for real conservatives. That's also why I support the waves that people like Paul made and Barr will make in this election. Little by little the libertarian party is gaining clout.

Ultra-conservatives can win??? Where? They are branded with the mark of Cain or should I say Bush. Their moral corruption... their rubber stamping Bush's adventures in usurpation of power... their support of his mismanagement of the war have left them in a state where they could not even push through a primary candidate despite several possibles.

They can't beat Obama. No way no how. They know it, that's why they punted to McCain. And if McCain blows it they can come back and say we told you so with an eye to the election after this one.

They aren't stupid. They are preparing for 2012.

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

And it's a good thing too. Left unchecked the jackals in Washington will surely turn us into "just another country."

Sorry to burst your bubble. The US has already become just another country. We have shipped and are shipping our status as the leading power in the world to the East. We have shipped manufacturing over there and we are in the process of shipping our knowledge and technology industries over there. We have practically insurmountable national debt... a huge annual deficit... loss of respect world-wide... a banking industry that is teetering on the verge of collapse... and much more.

The US is becoming like Georgia was when Gen. Sherman said that it is a hollow shell and he could punch through it and march to the sea. Our greed, avarice, and lust for consumption have gutted this country and we continue to do so to this very day.

Don't blame the Liberals... we are all guilty. We joyously did this to ourselves. And our children will inherit the shell that we have left them. And one day someone will come in here and march to the sea.

[Pharmakon]

Originally Posted by Bree

I told people to put up money and walk the walk and stop talking the talk. I still believe that is true. But when you have a lot of talkers and few walkers the best thing is for the talkers to just pick as to one and leave the other behind.



Obama is simply normal Democratic fare. He is no further left than Ted Kennedy or his ilk. As for conservatives... they should cut their losses and elect someone who is closer to them than the Democrat. Like it or not that is McCain. He is not highly liked or respected in the right wing circles but he is many times better than Obama.

It would be lovely if one could reasonably vote Libertarian. But just consider what would you have if you won? Zilch. There is no support for Libertarian programs in a Democrat held Congress. You simply have blockage... more gridlock. The promise of such a candidate is crushed beneath the wheel of reality that power is shared between three branches of government. If you want to change something you need the Congress on your side. Libertarians don't have it and they are not going to get it any time soon. So it's a wasted trip with them. Simple reality check.



Ultra-conservatives can win??? Where? They are branded with the mark of Cain or should I say Bush. Their moral corruption... their rubber stamping Bush's adventures in usurpation of power... their support of his mismanagement of the war have left them in a state where they could not even push through a primary candidate despite several possibles.

They can't beat Obama. No way no how. They know it, that's why they punted to McCain. And if McCain blows it they can come back and say we told you so with an eye to the election after this one.

They aren't stupid. They are preparing for 2012.


Sorry to burst your bubble. The US has already become just another country. We have shipped and are shipping our status as the leading power in the world to the East. We have shipped manufacturing over there and we are in the process of shipping our knowledge and technology industries over there. We have practically insurmountable national debt... a huge annual deficit... loss of respect world-wide... a banking industry that is teetering on the verge of collapse... and much more.

The US is becoming like Georgia was when Gen. Sherman said that it is a hollow shell and he could punch through it and march to the sea. Our greed, avarice, and lust for consumption have gutted this country and we continue to do so to this very day.

Don't blame the Liberals... we are all guilty. We joyously did this to ourselves. And our children will inherit the shell that we have left them. And one day someone will come in here and march to the sea.

I don't entirely disagree with what you. I don't think the US will ever come to the point you describe though. Not to say it couldn't happen but I will not have a defeatist attutude about my country or in it's ability to save itself from the bipartisan dictatorship. I contend that there is a latent function behind the problems this country faces and voting the party line and not even trying to retake some sanity for your country is chiefly holding it together.

It's sad if anyone thinks Bush represents what is "ultra-conservative". McCain is more like Bush then Say Fred Thompson or Duncan Hunter. Ronald Reagan was conservative and was hugely successful. So I can't agree with you when you say McCain is an adjustment rather than a duplicate from our beloved little Republicans. McCain would be a 4 year Bush impersonation. The problem republicans are have is a president and a candidate that do not represent the conservative values That is why the party has lost face.

As far as blaming liberals go, I don't. I thought I made that clear already.

Thanks for your opinions eveyone. Keep em coming if you like.

[Reeek]

Originally Posted by FLSTFI Dave

I just wish Barr was that smart, to realize his national candidacy is going now where.

His ignorance was on display during the Clinton impeachment. He should have been smart enough to let it ride.

It's funny how so many revered politicians are so stupid. I suppose it has a lot to do with the blindness created by their fervent pursuits . . .

That and narcissism.

[Bree]

Originally Posted by Pharmakon

I don't entirely disagree with what you. I don't think the US will ever come to the point you describe though. Not to say it couldn't happen but I will not have a defeatist attutude about my country or in it's ability to save itself from the bipartisan dictatorship. I contend that there is a latent function behind the problems this country faces and voting the party line and not even trying to retake some sanity for your country is chiefly holding it together.

It's sad if anyone thinks Bush represents what is "ultra-conservative". McCain is more like Bush then Say Fred Thompson or Duncan Hunter. Ronald Reagan was conservative and was hugely successful. So I can't agree with you when you say McCain is an adjustment rather than a duplicate from our beloved little Republicans. McCain would be a 4 year Bush impersonation. The problem republicans are have is a president and a candidate that do not represent the conservative values That is why the party has lost face.

As far as blaming liberals go, I don't. I thought I made that clear already.

Thanks for your opinions eveyone. Keep em coming if you like.

Bush himself is not an ultra but most of his minions are. Bush made himself out to be an ultra and he simply lied about it.

McCain is a blend and has made no bones about it. He likes being a maverick. He may be similar to Bush in some ways but it is how they get there that makes the difference.

You might actually get something accomplished with McCain. I think he can work with the Congress, lobby the leaders, and compromise. Bush is not a good compromiser. He actually has a good deal of respect from folks in Congress and that has some value.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Republican party IS the ultra right wing. That simply isn't true. The key voters are much closer to center. They are the ones who make the difference and they are the ones who McCain appeals to most. He also appeals to independents and right leaning Democrats who are not pleased with Obama.

As the polls show, he has a chance to win. He is very close right now. The ultras who want to go running to the Libertarians and others that "represent" their views will simply cause an unbalanced Liberal government with both Congress and the Presidency in the hands of Democrats. Now if that is what they want... then they get it... just split the Republican vote between ultra third parties and the main line candidate and Democrats win.

Nader did it to the Democrats. Maybe Barr and the others will do it to the Republicans.

On your other point, I think the party lost face when many of its members including key members turned out to be corrupt in their own values. The scandals put an ice pick in the heart of the party. I mean look at them all... Wolfowitz, Rove, DeLay, Gingrich, Smith, Miller, Crawford, Abramoff, Libby, Gonzales, Griles, Doolitle, Foley, Cunningham, Foggo, Tobias, Renzi, Haggard, Allen, Craig, and of course Dick Cheney. There are lots more as you move into the lower tier of the party.

That the Democrats have their own share of scandals in no way justifies the Republicans dropping the values ball since the Republicans tooted their values horn so loudly. The sheer hypocrisy of many of these scandals has rocked the party to its core.

The party has lost credibility even with its own members.