Wildcatters Plunge Into North Iraq

[AZXD]

A little on the bachground and decisions required to move something like this forward.

Pros & Cons: Distributed Rooftop Solar vs. Desert Solar Thermal

Written by Katie Fehrenbacher

Utilities plan to use solar power from both the massive solar plants that are being built in the California Mojave desert, as well as large scale distributed rooftop solar projects, like the one Southern California Edison is planning. So which technology is better? Centralized solar systems that use the sun’s heat to generate electricity, or hundreds of rooftops covered in solar panels strung together to generate power?

Roy Kuga, the vice president of the Energy Supply Division at California utility PG&E, had some interesting ideas about the pros and cons of each technology at the Berkeley, Stanford CleanTech Conference Series on Wednesday. Basically, while solar thermal plants provide lower solar prices, higher efficiencies and better energy storage, distributed solar rooftop programs are quick to deploy, and less costly when it comes to transmission lines and water needs. Check out the detailed list below:
Distributed Photovoltaic Solar Rooftop Projects:


Pros:

• These projects can get up and running fast. Around 8 months, Kuga says, noting that the solar industry is also trying to bring down this time dramatically.
• Distributed projects are not dependent on building long transmission lines to remote locations (such as the desert).
• Distributed projects are also not dependent on the high water needs that solar thermal plants require for cooling.

Cons:

• Distributed systems have high costs of deployment. Because each system is a separate project, each rooftop installment requires a lot of labor, transaction and implementation costs.
• They scale more slowly because it takes time to get all the rooftops up and running.

Solar Thermal Plants:


Pros:

• Solar thermal plants benefit from the economies of scale that can deliver lower solar power prices.
• Solar thermal plant efficiencies are commonly higher than rooftop systems.
• Solar thermal systems have pretty good energy storage technologies, so they are compatible with the intermittencies of solar. Solar thermal plants can store energy for when the sun goes down better than rooftop systems.

Cons: (Also check out our 8 Offbeat Hurdles for Solar Power Plants)

• Solar thermal plants in the middle of the desert are transmission line dependent. Transmission lines are costly and difficult to get built.
• Solar thermal plants need a lot of water, which is costly and delays permitting.
• Solar thermal plants need a lot of land and require extensive permitting processes to get approved.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by AZXD

A little on the bachground and decisions required to move something like this forward.

Thanks for posting. I also like your comparison in the other thread of the finely-tuned athlete.

Every home in Arizona and in Southern California should have solar panels. The government should be giving bigger incentives for people to install them because the initial outlay is expensive. The labor involved though would provide more jobs, more opportunities for companies.

[switchfoot]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Thanks for posting. I also like your comparison in the other thread of the finely-tuned athlete.

Every home in Arizona and in Southern California should have solar panels. The government should be giving bigger incentives for people to install them because the initial outlay is expensive. The labor involved though would provide more jobs, more opportunities for companies.

Absolutely. I believe the solution to energy needs in America will be different regions taking advantage of what works there, and individual Americans using what works best for them.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by switchfoot

Absolutely. I believe the solution to energy needs in America will be different regions taking advantage of what works there, and individual Americans using what works best for them.

Yes, and I think that's what T. Boone Pickens was advocating. It could get really exciting and it will encourage innovation.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Yes, and I think that's what T. Boone Pickens was advocating. It could get really exciting and it will encourage innovation.

I agree, but the NIMBY crowd will throw a fit over most any proposition he might make.

Why do you think SCE choose Blythe as a location for the solar farm ?? ... Less opposition would be my guess. It's energy, but its also wasted energy to transfer that energy to a major population.

I'm not knocking it! I'm just saying the NIMBY crowd is a big problem that will impede progress.

Think of your opposition to off-shore drilling .... It's the same thing, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear this solar farm was delayed because of NIMBY mentality, placed in a less than ideal location because of NIMBY mentality, and could still end up as a pipe dream because of NIMBY mentality.

That's not an attack upon you ... It's just a personal observation of why so many things that are good for this country are delayed, or never become reality.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by AZXD

I agree, but the NIMBY crowd will throw a fit over most any proposition he might make.

Why do you think SCE choose Blythe as a location for the solar farm ?? ... Less opposition would be my guess. It's energy, but its also wasted energy to transfer that energy to a major population.

I'm not knocking it! I'm just saying the NIMBY crowd is a big problem that will impede progress.

Think of your opposition to off-shore drilling .... It's the same thing, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear this solar farm was delayed because of NIMBY mentality, placed in a less than ideal location because of NIMBY mentality, and could still end up as a pipe dream because of NIMBY mentality.

That's not an attack upon you ... It's just a personal observation of why so many things that are good for this country are delayed, or never become reality.

I agree. It's just normal though, don't you think? People don't want their property values to go down. For YEARS, many people have thought that San Diego needs a new airport, but the place where they want to build it has a bunch of expensive homes in the flight path. And, the biggest pushers of the new airport are people in the current flight path. I'm not in favor of a new airport, but I'm giving an example.

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

I agree. It's just normal though, don't you think? People don't want their property values to go down. For YEARS, many people have thought that San Diego needs a new airport, but the place where they want to build it has a bunch of expensive homes in the flight path. And, the biggest pushers of the new airport are people in the current flight path. I'm not in favor of a new airport, but I'm giving an example.

Yes, it's normal ... But sometimes it is stupid to oppose a good thing.

Example:
Homeowner wishes to put solar on his roof ... NIMBY controlled HOA opposes it. State Law already said it is OK.

It happened here in Phoenix with solar hot water. The guy got HOA approval, installed the system, the NIMBY ****'s pounced.

Bottom line ... After a few hundred thousand in legal fees .. The homeowner had all his legal fees paid by the HOA and the State Court reinforced the idea that the HOA does not have jurisdiction to overrule state laws.

It's in a neighborhood very close to me, and the HOA fees went from $35 a month to about $150 a month to pay off an incurred debt ... The biggest NIMBY has since sold and moved.

• NIMBY 1 (because they moved after creating a problem)
• Homeowner 1 (Because they were in the right)
• HOA = $100,000 + in losses (Because they opposed someone who had the law on their side)

It's an individual example, but it does point out how opposition to the majority ties things down as legislative proceeding creep forward. If the Homeowner didn't have the money to fight for what he felt was right ... He'd have caved in to the will of a NIMBY mentality.

The same methods occur at the Corporate/Government level, and it's part of the reason progress can sometimes be very expensive.

Our politicians want to remain on their form of welfare, and thus do nothing about the important issues. They fear the backlash of progress, and the retaliation of the vote.

Example:
Discuss Energy Policy, or Steroid Abuse in baseball ?
They always choose Baseball.

Until it becomes obvious that they will loose votes if the do not address things of importance ... They always take the path of least resistance.
It doesn't matter at what level of government you look ... It's almost always the path of least resistance.

The only true leaders we have in any branch/level of government are the ones that make waves ... Everyone else just collects a welfare check

[JeffXD]

When the time comes that we are able to build a house, I want to use PV shingles instead of panels. Seems kinda silly to put panels OVER shingles or other roofing materials when building new. I also intend to use wind power as well. Of course, all for personal use and the potential to be off-grid as much as possible. I have an uncle that is using a geothermal system for A/C and I think we will probably look into that as well. I am not sure if the wife is going to along with a straw-bale house though. Probably just do a convential build and insulate the hell out of it.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by AZXD

The same methods occur at the Corporate/Government level, and it's part of the reason progress can sometimes be very expensive.

Our politicians want to remain on their form of welfare, and thus do nothing about the important issues. They fear the backlash of progress, and the retaliation of the vote.

Example:
Discuss Energy Policy, or Steroid Abuse in baseball ?
They always choose Baseball.

Until it becomes obvious that they will loose votes if the do not address things of importance ... They always take the path of least resistance.
It doesn't matter at what level of government you look ... It's almost always the path of least resistance.

The only true leaders we have in any branch/level of government are the ones that make waves ... Everyone else just collects a welfare check

I agree with you there.

Regarding the baseball and horseracing issues though. Something did need to be done. I think Congress can work on the issues some might find superficial as well as those that heavily impact all of us.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

I agree with you there.

Regarding the baseball and horseracing issues though. Something did need to be done. I think Congress can work on the issues some might find superficial as well as those that heavily impact all of us.

I disagree 100% with the bold. Only when they work to fix the major impact issues, and have the big problems taken care of should they look at the superficial stuff.

Here is how I look at it. You are on a Ship. the ship has a fire on the main deck, and the ship has a ten inch hole four feet below the water line. The ship also has a engine dripping a little oil. The first one endangers half the ship, the second one endangers the whole ship, and the last one, can go for months with no danger.

What do you want me to fix first????

Well the USA is that ship, and superficial is the oil drip.

Obvioulsy plug the whole first, then put out the fire. Last worry about the drip