Open-ended speculative discussion on race and society - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!

**DanTheEldest** · 06-20-2008, 01:05 PM

After reading Bill Bennet's great American history survey America: The Last Best Hope, and thinking about human society in general (when you drive a truck you've got time to think

), I'm tossing this up for discussion:

Given that in the absence of an external force for unification (i.e. government, military command structure, etc.) human beings have an observable tendency to separate themselves along ethnic lines, is a multi-ethnic "melting pot" really attainable the way we understand it in America? Is our seemingly instinctual desire to divide up into tribal units something that can ever be overcome the way the utopian fantasies like Star Trek depict?

With "race hustlers" like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton continually agitating (sometimes in the absence of a legitimate reason), will there ever be real peace among people of different genetic backgrounds who are by circumstance forced to share the same real estate?

I was just thinking about the cultural differences we see in more ethnically homogenized societies like Japan, China, Scandinavia, and this led me to a speculative question: How would America be different today if only Europeans immigrated here, and never brought African-American slaves? Would we be struggling with neosocialism the way we are now if there were no minorities to pander to? How would Africa be different, or would it? Or further back, how would America be different if no foreigners showed up at all, and the "native" Americans held the run of the place for all these centuries?

Alternate realities are a genre of speculative fiction I enjoy, so do a little "what if" brainstorming if you feel like it.

Warning: no supremacists will be tolerated. We have a pretty good group here on the board, but if any Stormfront or La Raza types show up I'll have this thread locked so fast the resulting thunderclap will make your dog pee on the carpet.

Son of Norway · 06-20-2008, 01:37 PM

Only white men went to the moon. What is the affirmative action stance on that?

It's human nature to be drawn to your own 'kind'. One of the best places to see integration at it's best AND worst is in the military. As a white guy in the AF, I didn't feel like I was in the "majority" race. The playing field was pretty even where I served. I went to parties where I was the only white guy in the room and, being the wall-flower that I am, I got to see racism from all people. I heard some pretty harsh remarks from some black men in these situations. It was always kinda funny when they would see me and say "..well, I don't mean you, man, your cool, but these other M-fer's.." I kinda laughed inside when I got that.

On the upside, I don't ever recall race being an issue when we were on duty. We worked together and got things done and it just never came up. For the most part that would translate into off duty as well, but there were always individuals that carried racist or separatist sentiments on all sides.

If we never imported slaves during the colonial period, we would have had to find cheap labor somewhere else. The lust for cheap labor continues to this day, only we don't call it slavery. We call it "undocumented laborers".

Brickboy240 · 06-20-2008, 02:12 PM

Its funny that you mention Scandinavia. Since I have a mother that was born there and several living relatives in Sweden and have been there many times...I will tell you this about Sweden (which goes for most of Scandinavia). Most of what is believed by Americans about this region is either exaggerated or completely false.

(ok...its cold there and expensive to live there...those two things...Americans usually get spot on)

First, yes, the region is largely populated by caucasians...BUT...recently, all Scandinavian countries (Denmark is probably the most) have seen an upsurge in immigration from areas like the former Balkan countries, Turkey, India and some Arab nations. True, these people stick out like a sore thumb, amongst all the fair skinned, blue eyed Scandinavians, but they act alot like the Mexicans do here in the USA. They do not take readily to the country's culture and are slow to learn the language and although most are not menial workers with no education...they act largely as outsiders...not as people that want to be Swedes or even try to fit in. They are also involved in more and more crime in an areas that has traditionally had a very low crime rate.

Most of the Scandinavian countries have VERY limited and strict immigration policies and they enforce them. That is definately exact opposite of the USA. They regualrly catch a bunch of Croatian or Bosnian or Ukranian illegals and they're deported within a day. Seriously!

Another inaccurate assumption is that only in the USA is there riff between light and dark skinned peoples. Most Scandinavian countries are FULL of people that distrust or have prejudices against their darker skinned immigrants. There is the same fear and distrust of Muslims (remember the cartoons from Denmark?) and similar prejudices and even some hatred of any that do not look like Scandinavians. Scandinavian countries have also seen a rise of neo-nazi groups as of lately. Yeah...you don't think of these things when you think of Sweden, Norway, Denmark or Finland...but I have seen it firsthand!

The Scandinavian natives seem offended that these immigrants are moving in and not assimilating or being respectful of THEIR culture and are only there because it is clean and to suck off the system. Sound familiar?!?

The Scandinavians are very open minded about many social issues like homosexuality, nudity and the like, but on racial and cultural issues...you'd be surprised at how narrow they think!

Actually, of the many places I have travelled...the USA is the one place where a mix of peoples and cultures works amazingly well. I know some Al Sharpton types will swear this is the most racist place in the world..but its NOT true. Race relations could be TONS worse if you ask me.

The thing we are experienceing that is breaking the USA down is the erosion of values and morals that once defined us as Americans. Couple this with the slef-loathing teachings of the left that have a stranglehold on our education system and have de-programmed pretty much most people under the age of say 30 to think that America is not so great and we have nothing to be proud of and THAT is where our breakdown is occurring.

It has little to do with race or skin color...or even religion. I know several latin and black people (and a few Asians) that are as gung-ho apple pie as any white person you will ever meet. The difference is that they are older, immigrated here legally (as my grandparents did) or were born here and were raised to appreciate America and our culture and morals. They think like we do and are on the conservative side and even though we look different, we share many things in common.

Sure, we ARE splintering off in racial groups (somewhat...I still hang around and work with many non-whites) but again...it has more to do with the abandonment of our values and morals than any upsurge in a certain race. The fact that some of us are anglo might be one of the only things still holding some of us together...who knows?

The fact that we are being overrun by illegals is again, part and parcel, due to the same problem. Moral and value driven people enforce and place value on their laws and the sanctitiy of their country's culture ...we're not doing that anymore. We're more concearned with not offending someone rahter than enforcing laws.

Ditto for our politicians. They too have abandoned traditional American values and morals (becaue we don't demand it of them anymore) and they lower themselves to pandering to one group or another...even if they really don't give a fig about that particular group. Again...an abandonment of morals and values.

- brickboy240

**Dave Starr** · 06-20-2008, 03:09 PM

I think that a lot of whites that have a problem with blacks don't know them as people. We live in the hood - the near north side of Flint, Michigan. The town that's #3 on the bad cities list. We're the only white family on this block, and our neighbors are the best we've had since we moved here in 68. None of us sees color; we're Sue, Judy, Dave, Tom - I don't have the guts to ask him if he has any nieces or nephews

- , Naomi, Traci, etc. We're just people. One of my cousins came over for our daughter's graduation open house & spent the afternoon looking over her shoulder, waiting for someone to open up with an Uzi. I told her not to worry, it someone did I'd cap them before they got off a shot.

It didn't seem to calm her at all.

I think if people of different races got to know each other as just people, nit black & white, things could get a lot better. Somehow, we've got to get past the stereotypes of all blacks as thugs & all whites as klan members.

BTW, Sue is her middle name. Her dad wanted a boy - she showed me her drivers' license & her name is James Sue. So, we got a girl names James; now we need a boy named Sue.

06-20-2008, 01:05 PM	#1
DanTheEldest XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 6,284	Open-ended speculative discussion on race and society After reading Bill Bennet's great American history survey America: The Last Best Hope, and thinking about human society in general (when you drive a truck you've got time to think ), I'm tossing this up for discussion: Given that in the absence of an external force for unification (i.e. government, military command structure, etc.) human beings have an observable tendency to separate themselves along ethnic lines, is a multi-ethnic "melting pot" really attainable the way we understand it in America? Is our seemingly instinctual desire to divide up into tribal units something that can ever be overcome the way the utopian fantasies like Star Trek depict? With "race hustlers" like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton continually agitating (sometimes in the absence of a legitimate reason), will there ever be real peace among people of different genetic backgrounds who are by circumstance forced to share the same real estate? I was just thinking about the cultural differences we see in more ethnically homogenized societies like Japan, China, Scandinavia, and this led me to a speculative question: How would America be different today if only Europeans immigrated here, and never brought African-American slaves? Would we be struggling with neosocialism the way we are now if there were no minorities to pander to? How would Africa be different, or would it? Or further back, how would America be different if no foreigners showed up at all, and the "native" Americans held the run of the place for all these centuries? Alternate realities are a genre of speculative fiction I enjoy, so do a little "what if" brainstorming if you feel like it. Warning: no supremacists will be tolerated. We have a pretty good group here on the board, but if any Stormfront or La Raza types show up I'll have this thread locked so fast the resulting thunderclap will make your dog pee on the carpet. __________________ The AK-47: Designed to be field-stripped and used effectively by a half-drunk, half-frozen illiterate conscript who found it buried in Mother Russia's mud after last year's Regiment exercises. SOP: retrieve from ground, pee in action, cycle bolt, go back to work. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. --Martin Luther

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06-20-2008, 02:12 PM	#3
Brickboy240 XDTalk 5K Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 8,974	Its funny that you mention Scandinavia. Since I have a mother that was born there and several living relatives in Sweden and have been there many times...I will tell you this about Sweden (which goes for most of Scandinavia). Most of what is believed by Americans about this region is either exaggerated or completely false. (ok...its cold there and expensive to live there...those two things...Americans usually get spot on) First, yes, the region is largely populated by caucasians...BUT...recently, all Scandinavian countries (Denmark is probably the most) have seen an upsurge in immigration from areas like the former Balkan countries, Turkey, India and some Arab nations. True, these people stick out like a sore thumb, amongst all the fair skinned, blue eyed Scandinavians, but they act alot like the Mexicans do here in the USA. They do not take readily to the country's culture and are slow to learn the language and although most are not menial workers with no education...they act largely as outsiders...not as people that want to be Swedes or even try to fit in. They are also involved in more and more crime in an areas that has traditionally had a very low crime rate. Most of the Scandinavian countries have VERY limited and strict immigration policies and they enforce them. That is definately exact opposite of the USA. They regualrly catch a bunch of Croatian or Bosnian or Ukranian illegals and they're deported within a day. Seriously! Another inaccurate assumption is that only in the USA is there riff between light and dark skinned peoples. Most Scandinavian countries are FULL of people that distrust or have prejudices against their darker skinned immigrants. There is the same fear and distrust of Muslims (remember the cartoons from Denmark?) and similar prejudices and even some hatred of any that do not look like Scandinavians. Scandinavian countries have also seen a rise of neo-nazi groups as of lately. Yeah...you don't think of these things when you think of Sweden, Norway, Denmark or Finland...but I have seen it firsthand! The Scandinavian natives seem offended that these immigrants are moving in and not assimilating or being respectful of THEIR culture and are only there because it is clean and to suck off the system. Sound familiar?!? The Scandinavians are very open minded about many social issues like homosexuality, nudity and the like, but on racial and cultural issues...you'd be surprised at how narrow they think! Actually, of the many places I have travelled...the USA is the one place where a mix of peoples and cultures works amazingly well. I know some Al Sharpton types will swear this is the most racist place in the world..but its NOT true. Race relations could be TONS worse if you ask me. The thing we are experienceing that is breaking the USA down is the erosion of values and morals that once defined us as Americans. Couple this with the slef-loathing teachings of the left that have a stranglehold on our education system and have de-programmed pretty much most people under the age of say 30 to think that America is not so great and we have nothing to be proud of and THAT is where our breakdown is occurring. It has little to do with race or skin color...or even religion. I know several latin and black people (and a few Asians) that are as gung-ho apple pie as any white person you will ever meet. The difference is that they are older, immigrated here legally (as my grandparents did) or were born here and were raised to appreciate America and our culture and morals. They think like we do and are on the conservative side and even though we look different, we share many things in common. Sure, we ARE splintering off in racial groups (somewhat...I still hang around and work with many non-whites) but again...it has more to do with the abandonment of our values and morals than any upsurge in a certain race. The fact that some of us are anglo might be one of the only things still holding some of us together...who knows? The fact that we are being overrun by illegals is again, part and parcel, due to the same problem. Moral and value driven people enforce and place value on their laws and the sanctitiy of their country's culture ...we're not doing that anymore. We're more concearned with not offending someone rahter than enforcing laws. Ditto for our politicians. They too have abandoned traditional American values and morals (becaue we don't demand it of them anymore) and they lower themselves to pandering to one group or another...even if they really don't give a fig about that particular group. Again...an abandonment of morals and values. - brickboy240 __________________ The top 25% of wage earners in America pay 86% of all federal income taxes collected. (according to 2007 IRS website data) Es mejor morir a pie que vivir arrodillado Volvo...the Swedish Brick! Last edited by Brickboy240 : 06-20-2008 at 02:26 PM.

06-20-2008, 03:09 PM	#4
Dave Starr XDTalk 500 Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Flint, Michigan Posts: 505	I think that a lot of whites that have a problem with blacks don't know them as people. We live in the hood - the near north side of Flint, Michigan. The town that's #3 on the bad cities list. We're the only white family on this block, and our neighbors are the best we've had since we moved here in 68. None of us sees color; we're Sue, Judy, Dave, Tom - I don't have the guts to ask him if he has any nieces or nephews - , Naomi, Traci, etc. We're just people. One of my cousins came over for our daughter's graduation open house & spent the afternoon looking over her shoulder, waiting for someone to open up with an Uzi. I told her not to worry, it someone did I'd cap them before they got off a shot. It didn't seem to calm her at all. I think if people of different races got to know each other as just people, nit black & white, things could get a lot better. Somehow, we've got to get past the stereotypes of all blacks as thugs & all whites as klan members. BTW, Sue is her middle name. Her dad wanted a boy - she showed me her drivers' license & her name is James Sue. So, we got a girl names James; now we need a boy named Sue.