Saying Goodbye

[jtkratzer]

Originally Posted by AZXD

Sorry, but choose another label. I have had this attached to my name on more than one occassion because of my views which IMO are not anti-American, just different than those of the individual who attached the label, and yes, it is the same person who called me a communist and many other things.

As much as people want to throw around terms and use them as insults, many are used improperly. Painting with a broad brush with the use of the term "neocon" is just one example.

The original poster was about as misinformed as it gets when it comes to his assessment of the situation, the volunteers who enter the service, where those volunteers come from, their mindset, etc. etc. etc. and he was equally misinformed in his assessment of those who served in the service and what their beliefs would be on the issue and his insulting of us all. His terminology to insult us wasn't even right.

The drivel that spewed from his mouth was typical of the hippie left crowd. It's the same stuff you hear from the numerous democrats who supported the war and were all gung ho until it became politically fashionable to be anti-war.

I think people who don't respect our service men and women are anti-american. You can be anti-war and still be patriotic. You can disagree with the foreign policy and still be patriotic. You cannot, however, insult our troops and be patriotic. If you want to disrespect someone, go after the politicians who are responsible for ordering the military around.

One more thing, if you don't support the war, why join the service?

Originally Posted by Brickboy240

I don't find his "chickenhawk" or "neo con" comments to be that out of line.

Why? Well...why is it that most people I know that served in Vietnam (like my dad and uncle) shook their heads and said "I dunno about this" when we were going to occupy Iraq, yet some stuffed suit types in DC, that never served (and don't have kids there either) are thinking this was a great plan and were gung ho? That raises red flags...when those that have been there and done that get queasy and those that will never feel the sand in their shoes are all gung ho and pushing their half baked plans.

Its not that Saddam did not deserve to be taken out or Al Queada and the Taliban squashed, but our leaders had a moral obligation to have a better plan put together for this than they did. They owed this to those that were going to be asked to do what they would not do: put their lives on the line for someone elses ideas.

Don't you think our soldiers deserve better than what Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Dubya put together? I do.

Thats hardly un-patriotic.

- Brickboy240

It not be out of line to have different views, but to use terminology to insult us as clueless, blind, brainwashed followers is wrong. If you say stuff like that, I don't care what the rest of your post includes. I have no respect for people who feel it necessary to insult people for simply having different views.

I don't insult people who have different political views than I do. I simply point out where I believe they're wrong and their views are flawed. When someone insults me over the views I have after we've been debating the issues and facts, I take it as a compliment that I've won the debate because there is no reason to resort to insults unless you don't have anything else left to back your views up.

[Frenchy]

I have been just as guilty of "terminology abuse" as others. I will make a concerted effort to rectify that.

[PackerfanXD]

Originally Posted by jkswiss

Saying Goodbye to his brother before he goes off to Iraq.

Saying goodbye for the final time.

War sucks.

(from offtopic.com)

Very sad.

Originally Posted by justgotback

These "kids" you're talking about are grown men and women that volunteered for the Army knowing what they were doing. Many of them jump at the chance to get to the combat theatre, for it is what they have trained for their whole careers. Don't feel sorry for them, be proud of them. Honor them!

Very true. God bless our troops.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by justgotback

These "kids" you're talking about are grown men and women that volunteered for the Army knowing what they were doing. Many of them jump at the chance to get to the combat theatre, for it is what they have trained for their whole careers. Don't feel sorry for them, be proud of them. Honor them!

I agree with everything you have said here jgb, I just believe that the administration has played "fast and loose" with their lives in a unnecessary war.
This is where you and I disagree, but I can live with that.
The families of these men however, while they will find solace in their honor, may question the validity of the sacrifice.

[retired]

I know it was said not to regret what you have not done, but I sometimes wish I had enlisted. I was 19 when the first draft lottery was done in 1969 and ended up with #345. I knew I wouldn't be drafted that year, so I dropped my student deferment and was reclassified 1H (emergency only). When they began with the new ones the next year, I was pushed further back.

I really didn't give it a lot of thought because I was safe and had some career goals in mind (law school/FBI or ADA). Also, as accident prone as I was (I used to have 16 Ace bandages at home and would bring one to the docs instead of getting another one for my many accident prone injuries), I figured I didn't have a chance in hell of making it home alive.

If I had been drafted, I would have served, not run to Canada like some did.

I wish I had given some thought to enlisting, but I cannot relive the past.

I did serve the County of L.A. in le, but that is not the same as those in the military who face/faced death and injury more than I ever did. I have a lot of respect for them and make it a point to shake their hand and thank them for their service whenever I see them. I also thank all of those here who have or are serving.

[one-eyed-fatman]

My draft number was 356. Not a prayers chance in hell they were going to get me. I joined up a few months later.

[jtkratzer]

You know, I was thinking after looking at those pictures again...is the younger kid who isn't in uniform crying in the top picture hugging someone who isn't his brother, perhaps a friend of the brother, after finding out his brother was killed? Is it two pictures who aren't even a before/after setting used to create that emotion?

[justgotback]

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

You know, I was thinking after looking at those pictures again...is the younger kid who isn't in uniform crying in the top picture hugging someone who isn't his brother, perhaps a friend of the brother, after finding out his brother was killed? Is it two pictures who aren't even a before/after setting used to create that emotion?

Excellent point JT. I thought the exact same thing!

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

I don't know about you, but the book I read, the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, it says the rich are to help the poor. The strong are to help the weak. It doesn't say welfare for the lazy, it says help those who are in need. Who are we, the last beacon on the face of the planet with the closest thing to true freedom, economic prosperity, general safety and security, with the freedom to be an individual, with the freedom to speak our minds and express ourselves, who are we to sit back and say, "Does helping those people benefit us? What good will come our way if we help them?"

What if we all did that at the local level? What if we didn't help those who are in need? What if all charities just closed up shop? What if all the soup kitchens and shelters closed their doors? What if all the foster families said piss off to the kids who need loving homes? It's ok to do those things because those people live here, they're Americans. But it's not ok to help people who live half-way across the world because we don't see them every day, we don't talk to them, we don't see them sleeping on newspapers and under umbrellas on the streets like the people I saw in Philadelphia this passed weekend. I was there to participate in a race for a cancer fundraiser. How fortunate are we to know that we can generally say and do what we want without facing torture or imprisonment? Is it not worth it to liberate those people?

Why was it ok to liberate the nations conquered by Nazi Germany? Why was it ok to liberate those in the concentration camps and death camps?

Where is the consistency?


I'm proud that America does not involve itself first and foremost in foreign affairs that benefit us. I'm proud that we put the well-being of others ahead of our own benefits. I'm proud that we send aid to a country who won't allow workers and volunteers access to help those tens of thousand in need in Myanmar. I'm proud that we send aid there but I'm sure we didn't see a penny from them after Katrina. It's the principle that we have the power and ability to give, help, and serve others.

Are there things here that could use our attention? Absolutely. But if we don't help others, who will ever help us should we need it? How will we be looked on if we, as the most prosperous country and people in the world, aren't willing to help those outside of our own borders?

Excuse me while I go get my red, white and blue pom poms and my bejeweled Old Glory earrings!

First of all, the Bible is not the manual of the United States; the Constitution is.

Second, if individuals in the U.S. want to help people in other countries, they can join the Peace Corps. Same goes for the guys and gals who want to join the military to do good works. There are many organizations worldwide that help people in impoverished or war torn countries. I'm sure many of them are helping Iraqi refugees as we speak!!

When my tax dollars and those of others go to pay for wars that we don't believe in, that is not me saying, "Oh, I want to help these people." That is my government forcing me to help people or kill people or bomb a country back to the Stone Age.

I say we take care of this country first, get our own house in order, and act as an example for the rest of the world. Maybe then these lame countries would get their act together and not depend on Uncle Sam to help them out of whatever jam they're in. Of course, most of the jams they're in are probably the result of U.S. and other Western countries' exploitation.

It galls me that the same people who don't want our government to lift a finger to help people suffering in this country or rebuild failing infrastructure in this country are so eager to see our government doing these same things in other countries. If the government is so corrupt and inept, why do we trust them to do it right somewhere else??

I believe in a "humble" foreign policy, one that doesn't think that we know best how everybody else should run their lives and their countries.

[Delija]

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

The original poster was about as misinformed as it gets when it comes to his assessment of the situation, .......(edit).........................

He served six years. If he was "misinformed" then I guess it's safe to say this is a matter of opinion.

.

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

..........I think people who don't respect our service men and women are anti-american. You can be anti-war and still be patriotic............

While I believe that (as someone said) JKSwiss was probably having a bad day, and he did go a bit overboard when he reacted to the follow up posts. There was no reason for him to make the personal assertions he made (in a few cases). But it's quite a stretch implying that he was disrespectful of our service men and women.

I've followed JKSwiss's post for a long time. I paid more attention than normal because I knew he had done what my son was learning to do at the time I first was aware of JKSwiss's military duty. In all those years I never once felt he was in any way not supportive of our military and in particular of the people who served and serve now.

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

.........One more thing, if you don't support the war, why join the service?........

First off, when JKSwiss enlisted, it was both long after the first Gulf War and long before 9.11, so how could he not "support the war" when there was no war in Iraq nor an attack of 9/11 without a crystal ball? And no Bush administration with a plan to attack and no plan to end the war. Other than the delusion that we'd be welcomed as liberators as we were in Paris in 1944.

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

I don't insult people who have different political views than I do.

If that's so, then good for you. No one should, so you are setting an example we should all follow.

Peace,
D.