Saying Goodbye

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

Any other America-hating idiots.

How bout just "idiots"...?

[jdavionic]

Originally Posted by LUVMYSIGP225

Drama queens that, instead of arguing their point, end their posts with comments like this...........

"I guess I can't stand to be in the same forum as chicken hawks and neocons anymore. Drink your Kool Aid, keep your head in the sand, and pretend all is well in this world.

Jkswiss is out of here, I guess the title of the thread is fitting."

Sounds like a total fag.

Sorry, I thought his whole post sort of shat in the faces of the good men and women that have volunteered to serve. Let's try and NOT minimalize their sacrifice. Am I a "chicken hawk" because I volunteered as an Armor Crewman, and served my time honorably, yet I never saw combat? Would I be qualified to comment on these topics? I don't know. The guy totally rubbed me wrong with that post.

No need to let it get to you. The post was heading down a nice path. Rest assured, you will have input from those that want politicize things to the nth degree. I believe the other gent hit the nail on the head - the post was likely done with no intent of paying tribute to the fallen, but to only to be used as a segway to make a political point on the war in Iraq. Whether a person served or not, I find that behavior shameful.

And sure enough, you will see a rush by others to join in & further his cause. And then you'll likely see the next crew run to their defense. And on it goes, life in the political forum. Only 2 people have graduated to my ignore list. If you find these folks (or me or anyone else) gets under your skin real bad, just use the "ignore" function, state your own opinion, and move on.

People are entitled to their opinions on this forum. True. But you can also be held accountable for what you say here too. Eventually folks that rattle off mindless rants or spew rhetoric without any trace of independent thought or in one case, defend folks that follow these paths at the expense of their own credibility...you just find that - 'you know what? they are entitled to an opinion, but it's really irrelevant to almost everyone else except for others like them.' You just let it go & move on.

On the plus side, I do enjoy reading some diverse, independent opinions expressed by folks here. It helps keep the forum interesting.

And with all that said...back on track we go. TO ALL WHO SERVED, thank you!!! Take the time to thank them. Take the time to honor those that are no longer with us. I had one idea that I thought was something worth trying. I was thinking it would be nice to go to Outback Steakhouse or Longhorns, buy a $50 gift certificate, and just keep it in my wallet. When I see someone in uniform, just give it to them at random and tell 'em 'dinner for you and someone else is on me. thank you.' Just an idea. I'm sure there are many others. Post them here and ignore the garbage noise of others. Turn this post into something good.

[Brickboy240]

Yes, thanks to all that served.

I am thankful you all served and wish only the best for you all and that those that are there will be allowed to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without being hamstrung or held back by PC leaders trying to impress their superiors.

...but I'd be lying if I did not think there was a better use for our valuable servicemen than a shoddily put together nation building exercise that this is shaping up to be. If leaders are going to ask so much of our soldiers, they owe it to them to have better plans in place than they currently do.

I hope this will all turn out well with Iraq, but we as a nation do not have a great track record in the nation building arena. We allow ourselves to get bogged down and wring our hands over things like Abu Ghraib and rules of engagement.

I do not doubt our individual soldiers or their immediate superiors because they are the best soldiers the world will ever see, but I do question those at the top (most of which never served or do not have family in-country), to make the right desicions and their ulterior motives for all of this.

Sorry if you find my take on this jarring, but I saw many in my father's generation get smeared across the map of southeast Asia because of a shoddily put together nation-building excercise. Dad, who did two tours in Nam, also feels the same way about Iraq and he is one of the most patriotic people I know.

- Brickboy240

[east_stingray]

Originally Posted by Brickboy240

Yes, thanks to all that served.

I am thankful you all served and wish only the best for you all and that those that are there will be allowed to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without being hamstrung or held back by PC leaders trying to impress their superiors.

...but I'd be lying if I did not think there was a better use for our valuable servicemen than a shoddily put together nation building exercise that this is shaping up to be. If leaders are going to ask so much of our soldiers, they owe it to them to have better plans in place than they currently do.

I hope this will all turn out well with Iraq, but we as a nation do not have a great track record in the nation building arena. We allow ourselves to get bogged down and wring our hands over things like Abu Ghraib and rules of engagement.

I do not doubt our individual soldiers or their immediate superiors because they are the best soldiers the world will ever see, but I do question those at the top (most of which never served or do not have family in-country), to make the right desicions and their ulterior motives for all of this.

Sorry if you find my take on this jarring, but I saw many in my father's generation get smeared across the map of southeast Asia because of a shoddily put together nation-building excercise. Dad, who did two tours in Nam, also feels the same way about Iraq and he is one of the most patriotic people I know.

- Brickboy240

Now, see... somehow you were able to get across the same point I assume the OP was trying to make, yet you managed to do it without being caustic and hateful.

Note to OP: Your point is much better taken when you're not caustic and hateful!

[justgotback]

Originally Posted by Delija

And then there were those of us who got drafted Which where the majority in the Army at the time I served, and probably of the guys you know who are around your age.

As for all the people bashing JKSwiss....I don't see how you can condemn him for offering his opinion. He put six years into the Navy (as a volunteer of course). He served his country for longer than he was obligated to. He probably worked more hours each week than most servicemen work in a month as a submariner (stressful enough without working 20 hour shifts and doing it again and again between four hours off to sleep, shower, clean up, etc....quite gruelling).

Anyone has a right to criticize the foreign policies of this or any administration when it comes to picking who to fight. In the case of JKSwiss, his opinion is coming from someone who served as one of the "kids" he described.

Maybe it would be worth considering that his opinion is also based on how he sees the issue as one of law......as he said, there was no imminent threat to the US (as is spelled out in the constitution as justification for going to war). Nor were we attacked (also constitutional justification) or even threatened by Iraq.

Is the world better off without Sadam? Yeah. Would the world be better off without a lot of brutal dictators? Yes again. Are we the world's police force? Did the kids that volunteered to serve go in believing they would serve to fight in another country's civil war? Maybe some, but certainly not all.

Is the fight in Iraq worth surrendering one's life for? Obviously a matter of opinion. But certainly JKSwiss is just as entitled to his opinon as is anyone else.

You can disagree with what he said, but to make nasty comments directed at him? He deserves far better. He served with honor in the Navy and he contributed way more to XDTalk than the overwhelming majority.

My $.02

Peace,
D.

Oh brother.....

The boldened part is certainly debatable.........

[jtkratzer]

Originally Posted by Delija

And then there were those of us who got drafted Which where the majority in the Army at the time I served, and probably of the guys you know who are around your age.

As for all the people bashing JKSwiss....I don't see how you can condemn him for offering his opinion. He put six years into the Navy (as a volunteer of course). He served his country for longer than he was obligated to. He probably worked more hours each week than most servicemen work in a month as a submariner (stressful enough without working 20 hour shifts and doing it again and again between four hours off to sleep, shower, clean up, etc....quite gruelling).

Anyone has a right to criticize the foreign policies of this or any administration when it comes to picking who to fight. In the case of JKSwiss, his opinion is coming from someone who served as one of the "kids" he described.

Maybe it would be worth considering that his opinion is also based on how he sees the issue as one of law......as he said, there was no imminent threat to the US (as is spelled out in the constitution as justification for going to war). Nor were we attacked (also constitutional justification) or even threatened by Iraq.

Is the world better off without Sadam? Yeah. Would the world be better off without a lot of brutal dictators? Yes again. Are we the world's police force? Did the kids that volunteered to serve go in believing they would serve to fight in another country's civil war? Maybe some, but certainly not all.

Is the fight in Iraq worth surrendering one's life for? Obviously a matter of opinion. But certainly JKSwiss is just as entitled to his opinon as is anyone else.

You can disagree with what he said, but to make nasty comments directed at him? He deserves far better. He served with honor in the Navy and he contributed way more to XDTalk than the overwhelming majority.

My $.02

Peace,
D.

You're absolutely right that he is entitled to his opinion and his views, but the nasty comments started flying his way when he insulted the rest of us chose to celebrate those men and women who volunteer their time to serve. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, it's the insults towards those who are patriotic and America-loving citizens that don't go over well.

Originally Posted by east_stingray

Now, see... somehow you were able to get across the same point I assume the OP was trying to make, yet you managed to do it without being caustic and hateful.

Note to OP: Your point is much better taken when you're not caustic and hateful!

Exactly right!

[Delija]

Originally Posted by jdavionic

I was thinking it would be nice to go to Outback Steakhouse or Longhorns, buy a $50 gift certificate, and just keep it in my wallet. When I see someone in uniform, just give it to them at random and tell 'em 'dinner for you and someone else is on me. thank you.' Just an idea. I'm sure there are many others. Post them here and ignore the garbage noise of others. Turn this post into something good.

I've told this little story before, but I think in this context it bears repeating. (Besides, it makes me feel good/proud telling it -)

I live in S. Fl., and went to my son's graduation ceremony from boot camp in Great Lakes, Ill. - All the new sailors (former recruits) got liberty after the ceremony. The had from (IIRC) about noon until 8 or 9 pm....enough time to have lunch and dinner and some time to just visit with friends, family, whomever. This after 11 or 12 weeks or so of almost completely being cut off from the outside world.

My son actually was one of the minority that really enjoyed virtually every aspect of boot camp (he wrote me the most amazing letter...I'll keep it forever).

Anyway, the one thing he missed was non-institutional food. And in particular he had a craving for sushi. I was staying with a friend who has a house near Lake Zurich, Ill., not very far from Great Lakes Naval Station. He lent me his car to go to the graduation. After the ceremony we went back to my friend's house and picked up him and his son (younger boy....maybe 14 or so at the time). We went looking for a sushi place. Found one, had a late lunch. (not easy to find a sushi restaurant anywhere between lunch and dinner times that serves).

Well, we're sitting in the restaurant enjoying our food, listening to "boot camp stories" (both my friend and I had been through basic training long ago), when a little girl of about seven walked over to our table and said to my son, who was wearing his dress whites "Thank you for serving our country".

My son, who had just turned 18, was at a momentary loss for words, but after a brief pause, he replied "You are welcome...It's my pleasure Ma'am".

The little girl giggled and went back to her parents (who I'd assume coached her). I think the "Ma'am" really gave her a little thrill....

My son looked at us and said with a huge smile and said......"Wow...that alone made the entire experience of boot camp worthwhile!"

So as they say, it's the thought, not the gift that matters. A $50 gift certificate is certainly a very considerate way of expressing thanks, but just a simple "Thank You" also can go a very long way.

I know when I returned from the war....a war I was not completely in favor of as far as political objectives, no one but my immediate family expressed much gratitude. Many of us were even spit on and called "murderers" (when in fact most of us considered our primary mission to keep one another alive - certainly not to kill anyone unless it was "kill or be killed"). Which is probaly (just guessing) the same objective that comes first to any soldier in any war. It's one thing to put your life on the line for some nebulous political theory (some more clear cut than others certainly). But to risk one's life to protect the very people who become "family" in battle is far more "real" and certainly closer to the hearts and minds of those who together as a team/family crawl through the mud and jungles and deserts and fight door to door urban combat.....the settings change, but the objectives remain the same.

Originally Posted by Brickboy240

I do not doubt our individual soldiers or their immediate superiors because they are the best soldiers the world will ever see, but I do question those at the top (most of which never served or do not have family in-country), to make the right desicions and their ulterior motives for all of this.

Sorry if you find my take on this jarring, but I saw many in my father's generation get smeared across the map of southeast Asia because of a shoddily put together nation-building excercise. Dad, who did two tours in Nam, also feels the same way about Iraq and he is one of the most patriotic people I know.

-

Thank you for this post Brickboy....it goes to reflect my feelings quite well. And the feelings of a great many patriotic Americans...both veterans and non-veterans.

Like your dad, I consider myself to be as patriotic an American as anyone. Like you dad, I served in a war that made it abundantly clear to me that the men and women who are in the military have nothing to do with policy. We follow legal orders, we strive to survive and perhaps even more importantly, we strive to assure the survival of our brothers in arms. The politics are dictated by the politicians, not the guys (and now the gals) actually risking their lives.

I personally don't know many (if any) Vietnam era veterans who see this war in Iraq as necessary to the security of our nation. Call it learning by trial and error, call it what you will....but to many this seems like the repeating of a mistake. On many levels.

But our active service members, as always, do as expected of them....they fulfill the oath they take at induction.

This oath does not state that they must BELIEVE in the specific objectives of the orders they are given, only that they follow them. This oath does not state that they agree with strategy or tactics or the politics involved. It is a pledge to adhere to the chain of command.

I don't see how JKSwiss has in any way demonstrated that he is any less "patriotic" than the next guy. Or that he is not within the rights he devoted six years of his life to protect....the right to express dissent through free speech.

I know that there are many here who believe that there is no delineation between the personal beliefs of a member of the military and the policies of our politicians. I disagree.

Whatever one may believe about our present day actions in Iraq, it is not about a clear cut "right and wrong"...it comes down to opinions. And at that, opinions (in this case particularly) of priorities.

Yes, we have an all volunteer military today (for the most part). We also have the "stop loss" option being exercised for somewhat obvious reasons. We have sent our soldiers to fight an objective that has become a "moving target".

Agree with the policies of this administration or not....I see no way that this makes one any more or any less "patriotic". For every single argument, there is an equally effective counter-argument.

While our military actions are open to debate as to whether we are "right or wrong" is clearly an open issue.

However to say anyone who feels our present policy is wrong is somehow "Anti-American" and/or "unpatriotic" is (IMO) completely unfair, narrow minded and perhaps borderline "unamerican" in spirit (or certainly would seem to be more "unamerican" than the actions of those who express their feelings with the constitutional right of "free speech").

Peace,
D.

[Palmguy]

Originally Posted by Delija

And then there were those of us who got drafted Which where the majority in the Army at the time I served, and probably of the guys you know who are around your age.

As for all the people bashing JKSwiss....I don't see how you can condemn him for offering his opinion. He put six years into the Navy (as a volunteer of course). He served his country for longer than he was obligated to. He probably worked more hours each week than most servicemen work in a month as a submariner (stressful enough without working 20 hour shifts and doing it again and again between four hours off to sleep, shower, clean up, etc....quite gruelling).

Anyone has a right to criticize the foreign policies of this or any administration when it comes to picking who to fight. In the case of JKSwiss, his opinion is coming from someone who served as one of the "kids" he described.

Maybe it would be worth considering that his opinion is also based on how he sees the issue as one of law......as he said, there was no imminent threat to the US (as is spelled out in the constitution as justification for going to war). Nor were we attacked (also constitutional justification) or even threatened by Iraq.

Is the world better off without Sadam? Yeah. Would the world be better off without a lot of brutal dictators? Yes again. Are we the world's police force? Did the kids that volunteered to serve go in believing they would serve to fight in another country's civil war? Maybe some, but certainly not all.

Is the fight in Iraq worth surrendering one's life for? Obviously a matter of opinion. But certainly JKSwiss is just as entitled to his opinon as is anyone else.

You can disagree with what he said, but to make nasty comments directed at him? He deserves far better. He served with honor in the Navy and he contributed way more to XDTalk than the overwhelming majority.

My $.02

Peace,
D.

Why don't you criticize him at all for bashing other people in this thread and implying that anyone who disagreed with him is a 'chicken hawk, kool-aid drinking out-of-touch neocon with their head in the sand'? I can't remember if that was before or after he was basically questioning the legitimacy of anyone who disagreed with him by doubting that many could have possible served in the military and got the demographics of the military pretty screwed up as well.

Palmguy
Navy Veteran

[AZXD]

Originally Posted by jtkratzer

Any other America-hating idiots.

Sorry, but choose another label. I have had this attached to my name on more than one occassion because of my views which IMO are not anti-American, just different than those of the individual who attached the label, and yes, it is the same person who called me a communist and many other things.

[Ride the Lightning]

Originally Posted by Delija

He served with honor in the Navy and he contributed way more to XDTalk than the overwhelming majority.

My $.02

Peace,
D.

....and then he pissed it all away by telling us all we had no right to feel how we feel about the military and that we were all idiots for still believing in something he either gave up on or forgot about a long time ago.

I also have never served in active duty and regret that. It was always my plan, but somewhere in college life happened and it didn't work out that way.

Even though I have never served, I have still given this nation 17 years of my life (and still counting), and I'm only 32 years old. My service entitles me to wear the uniform of the US Air Force, and I hesitate to wear it in public because I don't want to be mistaken for an active duty officer. There is no graceful way out of someone thanking you for your service when you aren't serving.

As a result of my service I have sent more fine young men and women to the military than I can (despite my best efforts) remember. Every one of them was like my brother in my younger years, and now they are more like my own kids. They get out of highschool, I go to their graduation, maybe a graduation party, and then they're gone and I don't know if any of them will be back alive or otherwise. I sit down and talk with every one of them before they leave and make sure they know and understand the committment they make. There is never any doubt that they do. In many cases, they HAVE trained their whole lives to go to war or at least for the opportunity. I think back to some of them and wonder if I helped them anywhere along the way. James Strickler joined the Marines in the mid-90's never to be heard from until his wedding, and I haven't heard from him since. He flies (flew?) AH-1 Cobras and almost certainly served in Iraq. Chad Adams joined the Navy and I think I've seen him once since then. Cassie Evans joined the Army, as did Brian Jacobs who earned the Silver Star only to come home and die of a brain tumor. All were about my age and were close friends that life has separated. More recently, there was Craig Hunninghake (Westpoint class of '11) and Enick Neely (Annapolis class of '11) who are going to make exceptional officers. Craig and Enick will both almost certainly see service in Iraq and they both knew that going in. It wasn't even a factor in their decision to serve. You do a tremendous disservice to these young men and women by saying that they don't know what they're doing when they sign up. They DO know. They have an appreciation for this nation that many can't even comprehend and they are willing to sacrifice their life for the opportunity to defend that which they appreciate.