Gorbachev: US mounting imperialist conspiracy

[Etta Place]

How did things come to this?

Gorbachev: US could start new Cold War
By Adrian Blomfield and Mike Smith in Paris
Last updated: 11:14 AM BST 07/05/2008

Mikhail Gorbachev has accused the United States of mounting an imperialist conspiracy against Russia that could push the world into a new Cold War.


AP
Mikhail Gorbachev: conspiracy

With Dmitry Medvedev due to be inaugurated today as Russian president, the Soviet Union's last leader said that the White House's claims of peaceful intentions towards its former superpower rival could no longer be trusted.

Delivering one of his most scathing attacks on the US, Mr Gorbachev told The Daily Telegraph that a US military build-up was under way to contain a resurgent Russia.

From Nato's expansion plans in the former Soviet Union to Washington's proposals for a bigger defence budget and a missile shield in central Europe, the US was deliberately quashing hopes for permanent peace with Russia, Mr Gorbachev said.

"We had 10 years after the Cold War to build a new world order and yet we squandered them," he said.

"The United States cannot tolerate anyone acting independently.

"Every US president has to have a war."

The 1990 Nobel Peace Prize winner's denunciation of the US mirrors the most belligerently anti-Western speeches of Vladimir Putin – who is said to consult Mr Gorbachev on foreign policy matters.

Mr Putin may be switching jobs to become prime minister, but many expect him to remain the most powerful figure in Russian politics.

Mr Gorbachev hinted that the former KGB spy could still direct Russia's foreign policy, leaving President Medvedev – seen by some as more liberal than his mentor – to concentrate on internal matters.

Yet if Washington blames Mr Putin's self-aggrandising rhetoric for the worst crisis in East-West relations since the Cold War, for Mr Gorbachev the blame lies entirely with the administration of President George W Bush.

"The problem is not with Russia," he said, speaking at a friend's château outside Paris.

"Russia does not have enemies and Putin is not going to start a war against the United States or any other country for that matter.

"Yet we see the United States approving a military budget and the defence secretary pledging to strengthen conventional forces because of the possibility of a war with China or Russia.

"I sometimes have a feeling that the United States is going to wage war against the entire world."

Last year, Robert Gates, the US defence secretary, told a congressional committee that America needed to boost military spending to counter myriad threats including the "uncertain paths of China and Russia".

Those comments caused uproar in Russia, with pro-Kremlin newspapers claiming they heralded the start of a new Cold War.

Tensions have already been heightened by a US proposal to build a missile defence shield in Poland and the Czech Republic to counter a nuclear strike by Iran.

Mr Gorbachev, however, claimed the plans were an aggressive act against Russia.

"Erecting elements of missile defence is taking the arms race to the next level," he said. "It is a very dangerous step."

Relations have further deteriorated after Nato promised eventual membership to Georgia and Ukraine, a move interpreted by Mr Gorbachev as an attempt to extend America's sphere of influence into Russia's backyard.

"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted."

For a man hailed as one of the heroes of the 20th century, Mr Gorbachev, now 77, often sounded like the ageing hardliners he struggled against in the Kremlin during the 1980s.

He railed against a "military-industrial complex" that he insisted was the "real government" of the US and, quoting a Russian documentary on state television, suggested that Margaret Thatcher had supplied weapons to Chechen terrorists.

Still, while Mr Gorbachev may be delighted by the rebirth of what many see as Russian imperialism, many wonder whether he approves of the way in which Mr Putin has eroded freedom of expression to such an extent that some claim glasnost is dead.

"I do not think that glasnost is dead in Russia," he said.

"There is a phenomenon in the West to criticise Putin's domestic record. But in Russia he has mass support. His popularity ratings are 70 to 80 percent.

"Is this not democracy?"

Gorbachev: US could start new Cold War - Telegraph

[mgeoffriau]

So we're taking criticism from a nation that since the fall of its communist regime has increasingly stripped away freedoms (of the press, particularly) and increasingly ignored a balanced structure of government?

[DanTheEldest]

There are many things about Russian culture that are worthy of admiration, IMO: stoic endurance of rough winters, stubborn defense against invaders in several brutal wars, patriotism, and an emphasis on their own unique contributions to music and the art scene. One thing that's not so admirable but remarkable in its own way is a collective sense of paranoia so deeply ingrained in the national psyche after decades of abuse at the hands of the KGB and NKVD (and centuries of oppressive monarchs before them) that Etta's pet punching bags (the vaunted NeoCons) can't hold a candle to it even their worst smoke-filled-room conspiracy-hatching frat parties. Clever Russian political figures who cut their governmental teeth during the Cold War will use this to help take the eyes of the collective citizenry off of the intentional eroding of their new-found civil rights and direct their attention to a place Russians historically love to look: the foreign threat to the Motherland resisted by the archetypal Russian strong-man leader.

IMO Gorbechev didn't so much start the reform of his country as managed what would have been an inevitable and utter collapse into something more graceful, an easing into a more democratic society rather than the system of government and economics that had proven itself a complete and unworkable failure after trying to compete with the West for so long. IMO as long as there is some remnant of the Old Guard in Russia's politics (Putin with the KGB, etc), there will be a sentimental hearkening back to the "good old days" (which actually weren't so good) where the food lines and shortages of every type will be overlooked by that deeply-ingrained Russian sense of resisting the external threat looming on the horizon.

And the Politburo didn't die with the fall of communism; the Russian practice of the many being ruled by an unassailable few just changed names. More often than not, the call of "resisting American imperialist conspiracies" coming from Russian politicians is just a buzzword for "convenient diversion for helping to get my people to ignore my own conspiracies for cementing my power".

[Frenchy]

Simultaneous finger-pointing.

[yeahYeah]

The media loves this man. Gorbi is a god to the left and therefore is highly credible. much like al Jimma Carterallah.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

"The United States cannot tolerate anyone acting independently."

This is one of the key points in this whole article, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by mgeoffriau

So we're taking criticism from a nation that since the fall of its communist regime has increasingly stripped away freedoms (of the press, particularly) and increasingly ignored a balanced structure of government?

I agree that Russia has not continued the reforms that seemed so promising in the early 90s. But the country was devastated economically and every way, and has chosen, under Putin, stability over freedom.

It would be better if Russia had a more open system. They now seem to be modeling themselves after China - political repression with a free-market economy.

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

There are many things about Russian culture that are worthy of admiration, IMO: stoic endurance of rough winters, stubborn defense against invaders in several brutal wars, patriotism, and an emphasis on their own unique contributions to music and the art scene. One thing that's not so admirable but remarkable in its own way is a collective sense of paranoia so deeply ingrained in the national psyche after decades of abuse at the hands of the KGB and NKVD (and centuries of oppressive monarchs before them) that Etta's pet punching bags (the vaunted NeoCons) can't hold a candle to it even their worst smoke-filled-room conspiracy-hatching frat parties. Clever Russian political figures who cut their governmental teeth during the Cold War will use this to help take the eyes of the collective citizenry off of the intentional eroding of their new-found civil rights and direct their attention to a place Russians historically love to look: the foreign threat to the Motherland resisted by the archetypal Russian strong-man leader.

IMO Gorbechev didn't so much start the reform of his country as managed what would have been an inevitable and utter collapse into something more graceful, an easing into a more democratic society of a system of government and economics that had proven itself a complete and unworkable failure after trying to compete with the West for so long. IMO as long as there is some remnant of the Old Guard in Russia's politics (Putin with the KGB, etc), there will be a sentimental hearkening back to the "good old days" (which actually weren't so good) where the food lines and shortages of every type will be overlooked by that deeply-ingrained Russian sense of resisting the external threat looming on the horizon.

And the Politburo didn't die with the fall of communism; the Russian practice of the many being ruled by an unassailable few just changed names. The call of "resisting American imperialism" coming from Russian politicians is just a buzzword for "cementing my own power".

I think this is the neocon position summed up nicely by Dan.

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by yeahYeah

The media loves this man. Gorbi is a god to the left and therefore is highly credible. much like al Jimma Carterallah.

Is there a reason that people in the U.S. should dislike Gorbachev?

[DanTheEldest]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

I think this is the neocon position summed up nicely by Dan.

It's not neocon or paleocon (which I consider myself in most senses), Etta--it's just the history of, and national psychology of, a nation which is basically a photonegative-reverse of the U.S. in almost every way. There's nothing partisan at all about what I wrote...it simply is.

What's so "neocon" about it? The fact that communism is referred to as a failure (not neocon--just fact), that Russian rulers exploit their people's nationalism and tendency to xenophobia (not neocon--just fact), or maybe is it just that I wrote it?

[Etta Place]

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

There are many things about Russian culture that are worthy of admiration, IMO: stoic endurance of rough winters, stubborn defense against invaders in several brutal wars, patriotism, and an emphasis on their own unique contributions to music and the art scene.

I have no argument with that, and I think anyone could draw this conclusion based on Russian history.

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

One thing that's not so admirable but remarkable in its own way is a collective sense of paranoia so deeply ingrained in the national psyche after decades of abuse at the hands of the KGB and NKVD (and centuries of oppressive monarchs before them) that Etta's pet punching bags (the vaunted NeoCons) can't hold a candle to it even their worst smoke-filled-room conspiracy-hatching frat parties.

This is conjecture. If you have studied Russian history, and you have read that the Russians generally are paranoid, and it's because of the KGB and the czars, then I think it would help if you would post a source. Otherwise, it sounds like your opinion only.

I don't know what to make of the neocons. I don't consider them evil - just terribly misguided - no matter how brilliant some of them truly are.

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

Clever Russian political figures who cut their governmental teeth during the Cold War will use this to help take the eyes of the collective citizenry off of the intentional eroding of their new-found civil rights and direct their attention to a place Russians historically love to look: the foreign threat to the Motherland resisted by the archetypal Russian strong-man leader.

Many leaders in many countries do this very thing. In fact, I would say that many U.S. leaders have done it. It's the best way to get your citizens to go along with massive defense spending and continuous war.

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

IMO Gorbechev didn't so much start the reform of his country as managed what would have been an inevitable and utter collapse into something more graceful, an easing into a more democratic society rather than the system of government and economics that had proven itself a complete and unworkable failure after trying to compete with the West for so long. IMO as long as there is some remnant of the Old Guard in Russia's politics (Putin with the KGB, etc), there will be a sentimental hearkening back to the "good old days" (which actually weren't so good) where the food lines and shortages of every type will be overlooked by that deeply-ingrained Russian sense of resisting the external threat looming on the horizon.

I agree that Gorbachev saw the writing on the wall and was open to rapprochement with the U.S.

With Russia's energy wealth, they can stave off any negative consequences that may come from not opening up politically. That could change if Russia doesn't diversify their economy. Many people though are getting rich off of Russian stock in certain sectors right now.

And, I have seen a couple of articles in two business publications that my bosses get about Russia and investment. Despite Putin's recent law

Russia's Putin signs foreign investment law
Mon May 5, 2008 7:54am EDT

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday signed a long-awaited law on strategic industries, designed to clarify which assets will be off-limits to foreigners, the Kremlin said in a statement.

The signing of the law is a milestone in one of the chief aims of the Putin presidency: to bring strategic industries, above all oil and natural gas, back under state control after they were sold off during the privatization of the 1990s.

there is a lot of Western investment in Russia and vice versa.

Never mind the rust, comrade
Indians and especially Russians are buying up U.S. steel assets at a steady clip
By Donna Block
May 11, 2008 issue of "The Deal"

Russia to Yanks: Come Here!
Despite its political saber-rattling, Russia wants American companies to help rebuild its crumbling infrastructure. And, oh yes - while it's looking for foreign investors, the country also has $500 billion of its own to spend.
May/June 2008 issue of "Corporate Board Member"

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

And the Politburo didn't die with the fall of communism; the Russian practice of the many being ruled by an unassailable few just changed names. More often than not, the call of "resisting American imperialist conspiracies" coming from Russian politicians is just a buzzword for "convenient diversion for helping to get my people to ignore my own conspiracies for cementing my power".

Why would Gorbachev be doing this? He's not in power.

Originally Posted by DanTheEldest

It's not neocon or paleocon (which I consider myself in most senses), Etta--it's just the history of, and national psychology of, a nation which is basically a photonegative-reverse of the U.S. in almost every way. There's nothing partisan at all about what I wrote...it simply is.

What's so "neocon" about it? The fact that communism is referred to as a failure (not neocon--just fact), that Russian rulers exploit their people's nationalism and tendency to xenophobia (not neocon--just fact), or maybe is it just that I wrote it?

As I stated above, it's not just Russian leaders that exploit their people's nationalism and fear.

I always think you write intelligently, Dan. I wouldn't criticize something merely because you said it. I'm sure there are times when I have agreed with you and said so.

[DanTheEldest]

Originally Posted by Etta Place

I have no argument with that, and I think anyone could draw this conclusion based on Russian history.

Well, yeah....it's just a bit of introduction.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

This is conjecture. If you have studied Russian history, and you have read that the Russians generally are paranoid, and it's because of the KGB and the czars, then I think it would help if you would post a source. Otherwise, it sounds like your opinion only.

It's hard to post a printed source when life is your teacher, but there were the pastors and missionaries who went on trips to Moscow who told me about the mindset of the people and the trust issues they had, the across-the-street neighbor who was Russian (an interesting lady) and her husband, the numerous magazine articles I've read just because it interests me, and I suppose these books would be a good place to start: The Rise and Fall of the Soviet Empire by Brian Crozier, which details the Soviet era from the time of the Bolsheviks to glasnost (1917-1991), and Peter the Great by Robert K. Massie--a fascinating, very readable look at probably the most famous of all the tsars, who singlehandedly dragged Russia kicking and screaming into the modern age.

And what's the beef with "opinion"? The whole original article is about Gorby's opinion about the U.S., and your opinion that he's right.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Many leaders in many countries do this very thing. In fact, I would say that many U.S. leaders have done it. It's the best way to get your citizens to go along with massive defense spending and continuous war.

I knew you'd say this, but I left it in anyway.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

Why would Gorbachev be doing this? He's not in power.

Just because he's not a "titled" government official doesn't mean he's not still wielding a measure of power. The political elite in Russia is an old boy's club like the Hotel California--you can check out, but you never really leave, and I'll bet you dollars to rubles if he wants to sit in on a policy meeting, he's welcomed.

Originally Posted by Etta Place

As I stated above, it's not just Russian leaders that exploit their people's nationalism and fear.

So what's your real point with all of this, Etta? (He asked rhetorically)