"Who will tell the people?" A well written opinion piece from the NYT

[xds&chevys]

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Originally Posted by Frenchy

Paul has his political flaws, but he is the only one that offers real change...Not just a slight difference of more of the same.

+1000

You should check out the reviews at barnes and nobles website about his new book.

The Revolution: A Manifesto

Think I'm gonna have to read it.

[mhillsing23]

OP: I agree with you. Very solid article, until the end. As a younger guy (23 y/o), I truly do fear for our future. There doesn't seem to be a work ethic, or a sense of responsibility among my peers. Don't even get me started on my brother (17 y/o) and his peers. Everyone has looked at the athletes and movie starts for too long. They try to imitate a lifestyle that they just cannot afford, meanwhile denying the fact that they are throwing their life away for frivolous temporary material "bling". Everyone wants to blame the .gov and no one wants to man up to the problems they caused by their own greed.

[Judge]

It is the Puritan ethic that built the strongest, freest, most prosperous country the world has ever seen. The asian 'work ethic" was growing rice for 2000 years, till we showed them a better way.

Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15

Apparently youve never been to Asia, or met anyone of Asian descent. Puritan work ethic was discarded long before that two hundred years you mention was up.

[XDConvert9mm]

Originally Posted by Judge

It is the Puritan ethic that built the strongest, freest, most prosperous country the world has ever seen. The asian 'work ethic" was growing rice for 2000 years, till we showed them a better way.

I would tend to doubt the bolded if you look at the net worth overall of the U.S. This may have been true in the past but not today IMO. We're prosperous on funny money, not the real net of assets-liabilities= NW. We're in the red.

[cucamelsmd15]

Originally Posted by Judge

It is the Puritan ethic that built the strongest, freest, most prosperous country the world has ever seen. The asian 'work ethic" was growing rice for 2000 years, till we showed them a better way.

Well, I can see the personal attacks are in full swing. That generally means you didnt have a good argument to start with, and thats the case here.

But I digress: Have you ever been to Asia? Have you ever met or worked with anyone Asian in recent years? Judging by the ignorance of your last statement, I think the answer is no.

I work with a fair number of people who are of some Asian descent. ALL are hardworking, every one of them. Nothing is ever too much to ask of them. Ironically, every one of them is able to live within their means. In this area, that means not owning a McMansion and a Lexus.

The Asian work ethic was working hard for what you got and living within your means. If you want to argue the position that we showed them the "better" way of expecting a handout, well, I couldnt and wouldnt expect much more from you.

And to further build on what XDConvert9mm has said, it is VERY hard to be considered the most prosperous country in the world when a few things are happening. Lets examine: Bear Stearns. Sub-prime mortgage crisis. Home equity at an all time low.
Federal Reserve: Homeowner Equity Falls Below 50%
The dollar at an all time low:
U.S. Dollar to Euro Exchange Rate - Yahoo! Finance
Oil prices at record highs:
Oil prices surge past $120 a barrel - Oil & energy - MSNBC.com

Originally Posted by Judge

Really, do you think before you ever post??

I think thats a question for yourself before you post drivel such as this again.

[Judge]

it's no personal attack.. I'm simply pointing out how oblivious you are to the point I made and to the facts...(edited to remove
what this mod considers a personal attack, from the above posts)

Yes I've been to Asia repeatedly and I'm in academia - finance - duh, so you might say I work around a few asians... I can even tell Chinese, from Korean, from Japenese from Vietnamese. I speak some Mandarin.

BUT, all of that is irrelelvant to my point.... asian work ethic had nothing to do with this country or building it, though they laid some fine track for the railroads. It was the discipline, creativity and never-say-quit attitude that built this country - again known as the puritan work ethic. Asians weren't even here enmass until what, about 20 or 30 years ago?

Not only are you oblivious to my point, you are oblivious to history.

Secondly, we remain the standard by which the world measures itself. We've more leisure time and convieniences than any other society. In 99% of the rest of the world, the vast majority of their citizens would kill to have what our poor have, in food, clothes, convenience, education, medical care...

And the currency has nothing to do with it... all major nations have fiat currency - it's irrelevant, it's just a convenient medium of exchange.... I'm not surprised you have a hard time seeing the obvious prosperity around you.

The 'equity at an alltime low" is another statistic without context. It ignores the fact that as a percentage of the population, more people own their own homes - whereas in 45, they were tenant farmers - with ZERO equity. Hell yes it's lower.... and it should be, even with the fact we're in a temporary bear market for housing. My father was the first of 11 kids to own a home. By the time they died, all did. That's amazing, from a cultural and historical perspective (world history, not limited to US.)

And you tell us what the significance of the weak dollar is. Why did it happen and what is the consequence, and where does it go from here. Go on, tell us the great distress this puts on US citizens.... Don't cut and paste or try to google a response, tell us with your own genius, since you posted it as a problem....

This is gonna be good.

Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15

Well, I can see the personal attacks are in full swing. That generally means you didnt have a good argument to start with, and thats the case here.

But I digress: Have you ever been to Asia? Have you ever met or worked with anyone Asian in recent years? Judging by the ignorance of your last statement, I think the answer is no.

I work with a fair number of people who are of some Asian descent. ALL are hardworking, every one of them. Nothing is ever too much to ask of them. Ironically, every one of them is able to live within their means. In this area, that means not owning a McMansion and a Lexus.

The Asian work ethic was working hard for what you got and living within your means. If you want to argue the position that we showed them the "better" way of expecting a handout, well, I couldnt and wouldnt expect much more from you.

And to further build on what XDConvert9mm has said, it is VERY hard to be considered the most prosperous country in the world when a few things are happening. Lets examine: Bear Stearns. Sub-prime mortgage crisis. Home equity at an all time low.
Federal Reserve: Homeowner Equity Falls Below 50%
The dollar at an all time low:
U.S. Dollar to Euro Exchange Rate - Yahoo! Finance
Oil prices at record highs:
Oil prices surge past $120 a barrel - Oil & energy - MSNBC.com


I think thats a question for yourself before you post drivel such as this again.

[Ed Ely]

I have edited out comments from several of
the above posts which were considered of
a personal attack on a forum member.

May I remind all, the Forum Code of Conduct
will be adhered to by all.

Issues such as what has been presented just
now, is the very culmination of the hiatus of
the PV forum before.

The ignore button is there for a reason. Please
use it. The PM area is for name calling and fist
fights and whatever. Decorum will be maintained
on the PV forum as well as all other areas of XDTalk.

Ed

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by Frenchy
Paul has his political flaws, but he is the only one that offers real change...Not just a slight difference of more of the same.

Originally Posted by Judge

Change from bad to worse is not an improvement.

And your choice for president will do what?

[cucamelsmd15]

Originally Posted by Judge

BUT, all of that is irrelelvant to my point.... asian work ethic had nothing to do with this country or building it, though they laid some fine track for the railroads. It was the discipline, creativity and never-say-quit attitude that built this country - again known as the puritan work ethic. Asians weren't even here enmass until what, about 20 or 30 years ago?

The point was lost on you before the statement was made.

Not only are you oblivious to my point, you are oblivious to history.

Whatever helps you sleep at night sunshine.

Secondly, we remain the standard by which the world measures itself. We've more leisure time and convieniences than any other society. In 99% of the rest of the world, the vast majority of their citizens would kill to have what our poor have, in food, clothes, convenience, education, medical care...

The standard by which the world measures itself, huh?

And the currency has nothing to do with it... all major nations have fiat currency - it's irrelevant, it's just a convenient medium of exchange.... I'm not surprised you have a hard time seeing the obvious prosperity around you.

For (supposedly) being in economics, you have NO CLUE how they work. Currency has nothing to do with it, right? Youre WRONG.

Perfect example: I work for a contract organization doing research. Multi-national companies farm their research out to the US in DROVES lately because its less out of their pocket. Rephrased, its MORE money into another countries pocket. Im not surprised you dont get this point, nor was I ever surprised. You have no understanding of basic economic principles.

The 'equity at an alltime low" is another statistic without context. It ignores the fact that as a percentage of the population, more people own their own homes - whereas in 45, they were tenant farmers - with ZERO equity. Hell yes it's lower.... and it should be, even with the fact we're in a temporary bear market for housing. My father was the first of 11 kids to own a home. By the time they died, all did. That's amazing, from a cultural and historical perspective (world history, not limited to US.)

Oh, this is going to get good. Lets revisit some of our past posts on this subject, shall we? You still have no idea now, as you had no idea then.

Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15

The majority of the middle class owns nothing. They make payments on houses, cars and boats, but dont hold the titles to those items. By definition, those are liabilities, NOT assets. Sounds like someone needs a course in Economics 101.

Originally Posted by Judge

You obviously know less of econ than you od of manners, military matters or politics. But you're consistent at least.


A liability is a debt owed ON AN ASSET THAT ONE OWNS. The amount borrowed is almost always less than the value of the asset. Hence there is EQUITY in the position. That's pure ownership. In addition, most middle class people have historically paid off their house by retirement - is why so many retired people can live in a house or nice retirement community... Many in the middle class pay cash for their cars and assets, all except their house. We've unmatched NET WORTH today... you can go google that to find out what it means.

When you learn to get the first fact right, get back to us.

Until then, don't waste the bandwidth.

Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15

You take out a loan on a car. Who has the title to that car while you pay the loan? Hint: Its not you.

Everyone I know in the middle class drives big SUV's that they cant pay for, and buy houses that they cant afford. If your right, then why is the housing market going down right now? Why are foreclosures in my area up 200%? The fact of the matter is, middle class Americans live well beyond their means and money.

Moreover, pure ownership is when you have title or deed in hand. Until that point, its not pure ownership, but rather a liability. Here, let me spell it out for you in crayon:

And an asset:

Guess what, your house, your cars, that nice boat sitting in your driveway? They arent your assets, they are the banks, or whoever loaned you the money to buy them. Until the day the you pay the last red cent, you dont own it because you cant control it in full.

Many in the middle class pay cash for their cars? Are you serious? How many people do you know with the coin in the bank to go lay $40k down on an SUV. Americans cant manage their finances that well, which is why we use one credit card to pay off another. We as a country, and as a people have unmatched DEBT today, not worth.

Like I said, someone needs to go back to Economics 101.

Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15

Your ignorance is appallling if you actually believe the garbage you post.

Perhaps you need a refresher on how a loan works:
1. You apply for a loan
2. The bank grants the loan
3. The bank holds the title or deed while you repay the mortgage
4. Under law, you do not own the house until the debt is paid to the bank. Your name may be on the title, but read that one line in your signing statements that says "Nor is Owner referring to whose name is on the title of the property." Your name may be on the title, but you may not own the property in question.
6. Go ahead and stop making your payments, because you "own" the house, youll find out who really owns it.

Ah yes, the true sign your argument is out of steam: Personal attacks.

Start reading. Youre ignorant to believe that the increase is that simple
http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Sa...ef=patrick.net

Ok, whats your point? We should bow to the almighty Judge because he "owns" stuff. My point still stands, most middle class Americans spend FAR outside their yearly salary, and live on credit. Statistics say you are very wrong. The law also says you are very wrong on ownership.

Like I said, get some education, specifically Economy 101.

Edit: Better yet Judge, why dont you go to the bank and ask them for the titles to those cars you financed and the house you have under mortgage. Youll see exactly how much you own.

And to follow that up:
Home prices sink at record clip; foreclosures keep mounting :: WRAL.com

And you tell us what the significance of the weak dollar is. Why did it happen and what is the consequence, and where does it go from here. Go on, tell us the great distress this puts on US citizens.... Don't cut and paste or try to google a response, tell us with your own genius, since you posted it as a problem....

Ive already told you, you just refuse to listen. Go back and read what I posted. You want consequences? Look around you for Christ sake. Forclosures rising, higher oil prices, higher inflation, greater national debt, weaker dollar, sliding markets worldwide. Yeah, those are just the beginning...

Ironically, the personal attacks now are the same as they were then. Seems someone hasnt "changed". Ill eagerly await your response while you google it. I dont have to google things to be able to think on my feet, so like you said:

This is gonna be good.

[cucamelsmd15]

Still waiting for that lecture from the "economist" himself.